OT: alcohol based perfume removal?

On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
> 
>> torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev
> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
>>> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The condition is very real. People like you who can't be rational
>>>> about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the
>>>> forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real,
>>>> but it is psychosomatic. Doesn't make it less real.

>>> It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as
>> internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic
>> illnesses is not relevant.
>>
>> how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things,
>> and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example
>> memories

Smells and taste are primitive senses and go very deep into the lowest 
levels of awareness. There are reflex actions like sneezes that trigger 
well before the brain has time to classify what the smell is or even 
recognise that it is present. Bitterness and some revolting smells are 
there as a warning. Covid has been shown to scramble sense of smell.

Not good if you make your living as a food taster or whiskey blender.

> I can't speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
> perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
> eyes unable to focus.  This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
> of any smell but later discovered that an odourless 'air freshener' had
> been installed without my knowledge.

I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells 
at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I 
can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably.

I was allergic to tobacco smoke and perfume counters as a child but I 
grew out of it. The only remaining thing is that on exposure to an 
unexpected strong (to me) smell I can sneeze violently a full 2s before 
I can smell it. Sometimes I cannot quite smell it but know it is there.

Most times people with me cannot smell it at all and the odd one can 
identify something that makes their nose tingle but no smell as such. 
Bad ones sometimes bring tears to my eyes but I can live with that.

The weirdest thing is that my mum had no sense of smell or taste (nor 
did my great aunt) and one of my female cousins is also a super taster. 
The genetic difference between being a super taster and can't smell at 
all must be almost a hard on/off genetic switch somewhere.

> Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
> can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me.  I would
> rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill.  It's called
> 'learning'.

They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I 
do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert 
bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 18/11/2021 23:24, Dave Platt wrote:
> In article <f3394a4a-a349-4f6b-bcd0-d4d479b6df0an@googlegroups.com>,
> Rick C  <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm surprised that natural scents are an issue.
> 
> "Natural" doesn't necessarily equate to "benign".  A lot of plants
> seem to have evolved the ability to generate volatiles which are quite
> effective insecticides.  Orange and lemon oils are very effective ant
> repellants and killers, and mint oil is apparently neurotoxic to many
> insects (it's the key active ingredient, along with soap, in some
> "green" wasp killing sprays).

Most natural flavours and smells are intended by the plant as either a 
fungicide, pesticide or sunscreen. The fact that some of the stimulant 
neurotoxins that plants use to kill insects have a very different effect 
on us in trace doses makes them interesting to human cultivation.

Of the things in the Alnwick poison garden the henbane was the only 
thing I found unbearable to remain near. I found its smell overpowering. 
Daturas by comparison only smell bad if you bruise the plant - the 
flowers smell absolutely divine (once used as a soap fragrance).
> 
> Here's an interesting research article (from 2018) citing evidence that
> natural emissions of volatile oils from plants can be a significant
> contributor to asthma problems:
> 
> https://www.dovepress.com/getfile.php?fileID=50644
> 
> It discusses the fact that many of these terpenes, aldehydes, and
> ketones are sensitizers, and that their sensitizing ability tends to
> increase as the compounds oxidize.

I'm sure that is true. Especially in places where there are lots of 
trees growing that exude hydrocarbons. The blue haze around certain 
Australian forest trees like eucalyptus is an example

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/isoprene/isoprenec.htm

>>       If you are sensitive to orange oil, can you not handle an orange or eat
>> orange?
> 
> I can handle them OK, as long as the skin isn't abraded - the volatile
> oil is contained mostly in oil glands in the skin.  My main
> sensitivity seems to be by inhalation - I can't recall ever having a
> problem with skin dermatitis from the oil.
> 
> When my wife eats an orange I ask her to peel it outside and throw
> away the peel.
> 
> I can get away with eating a small amount of citrus, or drinking a
> small amount of orange juice, occasionally... my sensitivity to it
> seems to worsen after repeated exposure and retreat with time.

How about grapefruit? That is a known problem for anyone on statins 
since it contains enough of a compound furanocoumarins that radically 
alters drug uptake rates to cause potentially serious problems.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/26/grapefruit-health-risk-warning

> Different species of citrus affect me differently.  The common oranges
> (e.g. naval) seem to be the worst.  Lemons are intermediate, and I
> have good tolerance for lime and for blood oranges.   I presume this
> is due to differences in the volatile oil chemistry of the different
> species..

It might be worth looking to see which compounds are present in the ones 
that you find acceptable. Limes are considerably less aromatic than most 
lemons. There are many hybrid citrus fruit to try in all shapes and 
sizes so that you may be able to find some that you can eat OK.
> 
> It's a shame - I love the flavor of citrus and I would eat it more
> often than I do, if I could get away with it.

Stay away from the bruised skin of citrus fruit. That is where you are 
most likely to have a problem.

>> I stopped wearing cologne and now wear essential oils because they don't cause me any trouble.   They don't last as
>> long, but I haven't found anyone they offend.  Now that you mention it, I will look for orange oil next time I'm in the
>> store.  I would like wearing that and I don't think it will be strong enough to bother anyone here through the Internet.
> 
> No, fortunately, the amount of volatile-oil transfer down the wires
> (capillary action) or through fiber-optic or microwave links is quite
> negligible :-)

Increasingly limonene is being used as an eco friendly cleaning solvent. 
This may pose a problem for people who are sensitive to it (or rather to 
the oxidised impurities present in it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonene

Citral is much more likely to be a source of "perfume" allergy though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citral

(around 1-2% of people are allergic to citral to some extent)

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:24:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 19/11/2021 19:26, Liz Tuddenham wrote: 
> > I can't speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in 
> > perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my 
> > eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware 
> > of any smell but later discovered that an odourless 'air freshener' had 
> > been installed without my knowledge.
> I think you are making up word salad here. I am very sensitive to smells 
> at a level where I can identify many organic chemicals by smell alone. I 
> can also match worn clothes to their owners quite reliably. 

I think you are being dismissive of something you don't understand.  You are not "sensitive", you have a good "selective" ability.  That's not remotely the same.  Since you don't understand the issue, you are not qualified to discuss it. 

<<< snipped pointless personal anecdotes >>>

> > Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I 
> > can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would 
> > rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It's called 
> > 'learning'.
> They are not truly toxic to you unless you go into anaphylactic shock. I 
> do have such a vulnerability but not to any smell. I wear a medic alert 
> bracelet and have an ICE warning on my mobile phone lock screen. 

Again, a failure to understand and insisting your personal experience is the only relevant fact.  Do you wear a medic alert bracelet to every substance you would suffer a toxic response to? 

Please look up the definition of "toxic" before posting again. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On 11/19/21 16:29, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/18/21 14:32, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> I am after getting other people chemicals out of
>>>> my cloths.  I have tried stuff for hunters and
>>>> it does not work.
>>
>>> which product for hunters did you try?
>>
>> Don't remember.  They all gave a member of my family
>> asthma and skin rashes
> 
> Sounds like a family of wackos. No advice will help these folks.
> 

You could not help so your reverted to insults.
You are a real gentleman

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/19/21 16:29, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/18/21 14:32, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>>> I am after getting other people chemicals out of
>>>>> my cloths.  I have tried stuff for hunters and
>>>>> it does not work.
>>>
>>>> which product for hunters did you try?
>>>
>>> Don't remember.  They all gave a member of my family
>>> asthma and skin rashes
>> 
>> Sounds like a family of wackos. No advice will help these folks.
>> 
> 
> You could not help so your reverted to insults.
> You are a real gentleman

You live with the rashy asthmatics in the house that smells of fish and 
boiled cinnamon (an allergen by the way), not me. As for the "miracle" of 
vinegar, most of that is made from byproducts of the petroleum industry. I 
can't even imagine what deadly toxins are in that stuff.

On 11/17/21 07:57, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Some of the so-called 'fresheners' are just as bad as the perfumes for
> triggering allergies.

Fabreeze is a horrible allergin

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/17/21 07:57, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > Some of the so-called 'fresheners' are just as bad as the perfumes for
> > triggering allergies.
> 
> Fabreeze is a horrible allergin

There is good evidence that it kills dogs and creates neurological
disturbances in cats.

-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 8:07:05 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote: 
> 
> > On 11/17/21 07:57, Liz Tuddenham wrote: 
> > > Some of the so-called 'fresheners' are just as bad as the perfumes for 
> > > triggering allergies. 
> > 
> > Fabreeze is a horrible allergin
> There is good evidence that it kills dogs and creates neurological 
> disturbances in cats.

"neurological disturbances in cats"  -  How can you tell? 

-- 

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On 11/23/21 05:53, Rick C wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 8:07:05 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/17/21 07:57, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>> Some of the so-called 'fresheners' are just as bad as the perfumes for
>>>> triggering allergies.
>>>
>>> Fabreeze is a horrible allergin
>> There is good evidence that it kills dogs and creates neurological
>> disturbances in cats.
> 
> "neurological disturbances in cats"  -  How can you tell?
> 

:-)  !!!!


Tofu, a flavorless white gelatinous substance that
sits in your gut, won't digest and causes gas,
is god's punishment for humans domesticating cats.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gU0nhwlP5J4/WYs_zr-OYxI/AAAAAAAADmg/pdQxUcYSWrgXPojgnEEd-blty3x8hIUywCLcBGAs/s1600/todudebeest.jpg

On 23/11/2021 13:53, Rick C wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 8:07:05 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/17/21 07:57, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>> Some of the so-called 'fresheners' are just as bad as the perfumes for
>>>> triggering allergies.
>>>
>>> Fabreeze is a horrible allergin

It is a complex mixture of chemicals designed to disguise and mask BO. 
They are usually *very* careful to avoid any allergenic compounds.

>> There is good evidence that it kills dogs and creates neurological
>> disturbances in cats.
> 
> "neurological disturbances in cats"  -  How can you tell?

Cats are borderline psychotic at the best of times...
More so for US style "house cats" that are never allowed out.

It is paranoid new age word salad against chemicals.

I am no fan of "air fresheners" by the way - they seek to disguise what 
could be important warning signs of things that could be potentially 
dangerous like the smell of rotting food or leaking drains for example.

If you are really allergic to something in the air then the effect is 
not unlike CS gas or methyl mercaptan (smell of gas). Eyes or lungs on 
fire streaming with tears almost blinded and possibly vomiting as well. 
If you are really out of luck throat swelling can cause breathing 
difficulties and intervention with an epipen may be needed.

A small number of very dangerous allergic sensitisers produce no effect 
at all the very first time that you are exposed. The second time around 
is something of a wake up call.

Think hayfever on steroids and you get the general idea.

What she & T are describing is much more like a high functioning autism 
response to complex smells which is entirely different to an allergy. 
The irrational obsession with perceived "toxins" is also consistent.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown