OT: alcohol based perfume removal?

In article <f3394a4a-a349-4f6b-bcd0-d4d479b6df0an@googlegroups.com>,
Rick C  <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm surprised that natural scents are an issue.

"Natural" doesn't necessarily equate to "benign".  A lot of plants
seem to have evolved the ability to generate volatiles which are quite
effective insecticides.  Orange and lemon oils are very effective ant
repellants and killers, and mint oil is apparently neurotoxic to many
insects (it's the key active ingredient, along with soap, in some
"green" wasp killing sprays).

Here's an interesting research article (from 2018) citing evidence that
natural emissions of volatile oils from plants can be a significant
contributor to asthma problems:

https://www.dovepress.com/getfile.php?fileID=50644

It discusses the fact that many of these terpenes, aldehydes, and
ketones are sensitizers, and that their sensitizing ability tends to
increase as the compounds oxidize.

>      If you are sensitive to orange oil, can you not handle an orange or eat
>orange?

I can handle them OK, as long as the skin isn't abraded - the volatile
oil is contained mostly in oil glands in the skin.  My main
sensitivity seems to be by inhalation - I can't recall ever having a
problem with skin dermatitis from the oil.

When my wife eats an orange I ask her to peel it outside and throw
away the peel.

I can get away with eating a small amount of citrus, or drinking a
small amount of orange juice, occasionally... my sensitivity to it
seems to worsen after repeated exposure and retreat with time.

Different species of citrus affect me differently.  The common oranges
(e.g. naval) seem to be the worst.  Lemons are intermediate, and I
have good tolerance for lime and for blood oranges.   I presume this
is due to differences in the volatile oil chemistry of the different
species..

It's a shame - I love the flavor of citrus and I would eat it more
often than I do, if I could get away with it.

>I stopped wearing cologne and now wear essential oils because they don't cause me any trouble.   They don't last as
>long, but I haven't found anyone they offend.  Now that you mention it, I will look for orange oil next time I'm in the
>store.  I would like wearing that and I don't think it will be strong enough to bother anyone here through the Internet.

No, fortunately, the amount of volatile-oil transfer down the wires
(capillary action) or through fiber-optic or microwave links is quite
negligible :-)

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 5:58:49 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: 
> > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote: 
> > > On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-4, T wrote: 
> > > >> On 11/18/21 11:01, Rick C wrote: 
> > > >>> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:37:22 PM UTC-4, T wrote: 
> > > >>>> On 11/18/21 06:38, Rick C wrote: 
> > > >> 
> > > >>>>> Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes. There may be a correlation, but how strong? 
> > > >>>>> 
> > > >>>> I sincerely hope you or anyone you love ever get 
> > > >>>> sensitive. Your outlook will change dramatically. 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> My having the condition does not change the facts which you seem to be exaggerating. 
> > > >>> 
> > > >> That is a good excuse for not giving a shit about 
> > > >> what harm your behavior causes your neighbors. 
> > > > 
> > > > This is the sort of exaggeration I'm referring to. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >> And I am not exaggerating. You need to watch helplessly 
> > > >> as someone you love gasps in terror trying to breath. 
> > > >> Or maybe have it happen to you. 
> > > > 
> > > > You still can't respond to the actual statement I made. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >> Whatsoever you would have others do unto you, do 
> > > >> unto them. Have you ever heard of "karma"? 
> > > > 
> > > > Here you have gone off the deep end casting me as someone who creates problems for you. You've lost it now. 
> > > > 
> > > > The condition is very real. People like you who can't be rational about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the forefront or others will think we are all like you. 
> > > Yes, it is real, but it is psychosomatic. Doesn't make it less real. 
> > It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic illnesses is not relevant.
> how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, and smells are already know to be 
> powerful triggers of for example memories

How do "I" rule out it being psychosomatic?  I don't.  If it were psychosomatic, it would be characterized as such.  This is a recognized condition.  I don't need to rule it out smell sensitivity since the researchers consider it to be a physical disease. 

-- 

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 7:24:16 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
> In article <f3394a4a-a349-4f6b...@googlegroups.com>,
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> >I'm surprised that natural scents are an issue.
> "Natural" doesn't necessarily equate to "benign". 

I never said "natural" means benign.  I am surprised because most natural scents are common and I've never found them to be offensive even while many scents in products are very offensive to me.  There's something that is often used in mop water that is hugely offensive to me, I typically have to leave the room.  It's not pine scent, but something that smells more chemical.  Nasty! 


> A lot of plants 
> seem to have evolved the ability to generate volatiles which are quite 
> effective insecticides. Orange and lemon oils are very effective ant 
> repellants and killers, and mint oil is apparently neurotoxic to many 
> insects (it's the key active ingredient, along with soap, in some 
> "green" wasp killing sprays). 

And yet I often handle lemons and oranges and even eat them as well as their zest!  I love mint in my mojitos.  


> Here's an interesting research article (from 2018) citing evidence that 
> natural emissions of volatile oils from plants can be a significant 
> contributor to asthma problems: 
> 
> https://www.dovepress.com/getfile.php?fileID=50644 
> 
> It discusses the fact that many of these terpenes, aldehydes, and 
> ketones are sensitizers, and that their sensitizing ability tends to 
> increase as the compounds oxidize.
> > If you are sensitive to orange oil, can you not handle an orange or eat 
> >orange?
> I can handle them OK, as long as the skin isn't abraded - the volatile 
> oil is contained mostly in oil glands in the skin. My main 
> sensitivity seems to be by inhalation - I can't recall ever having a 
> problem with skin dermatitis from the oil. 
> 
> When my wife eats an orange I ask her to peel it outside and throw 
> away the peel. 
> 
> I can get away with eating a small amount of citrus, or drinking a 
> small amount of orange juice, occasionally... my sensitivity to it 
> seems to worsen after repeated exposure and retreat with time. 
> 
> Different species of citrus affect me differently. The common oranges 
> (e.g. naval) seem to be the worst. Lemons are intermediate, and I 
> have good tolerance for lime and for blood oranges. I presume this 
> is due to differences in the volatile oil chemistry of the different 
> species.. 
> 
> It's a shame - I love the flavor of citrus and I would eat it more 
> often than I do, if I could get away with it.
> >I stopped wearing cologne and now wear essential oils because they don't cause me any trouble. They don't last as 
> >long, but I haven't found anyone they offend. Now that you mention it, I will look for orange oil next time I'm in the 
> >store. I would like wearing that and I don't think it will be strong enough to bother anyone here through the Internet.
> No, fortunately, the amount of volatile-oil transfer down the wires 
> (capillary action) or through fiber-optic or microwave links is quite 
> negligible :-)

Good thing they never perfected smell-o-vision. 

-- 

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/18/21 14:32, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> I am after getting other people chemicals out of
>> my cloths.  I have tried stuff for hunters and
>> it does not work.

> which product for hunters did you try?

Don't remember.  They all gave a member of my family
asthma and skin rashes

On 11/16/2021 10:06 PM, T wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Anyone with a chemistry background?
> 
> There are now laundry perfumes and fabric finishes
> (that are highly scented) that are not meant to
> wash  out.  They toxic substances are very difficult
> on folks with allergies, especially asthma.   They
> don't wash out.

Select non-scented products.  Note that you may also
have to refine your search once you determine any
other irritants in the products.

For example, many HE detergents can result in
contact dermatitis for folks with sensitive skin.
You'll tend to notice this in areas where the garments
come into close, *persistent* contact with the skin.
Socks being a great example.

[Speaking with my MD about this, it is apparently a
fairly common problem]

Our solution has been to reduce the amount of detergent
used (make sure you've already made the "recommended"
adjustment in measurement) AND to run a "Quick Wash"
cycle WITHOUT DETERGENT following the regular wash.

This effectively adds TWO rinse cycles (one for the
"wash"-without-detergent and one for the rinse that
follows it).

It sort of defeats the purpose of having an HE washer
but it's made a noticeable difference in skin irritation
for each of us.

> Somewhere that I do not remember, I read that these
> toxic substances are alcohol soluble and won't wash
> out in water.  Am I correct?
> 
> Anyway, if alcohol soluble, how do you get them out?
> Dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the washer?
> 
> Any other ideas one way other the other?
> 
> Many thanks,
> -T

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:26:22 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: 
> 
> > torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev 
> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: 
> > > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote: 
> > > > On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-4, T wrote: 
> > > > >> On 11/18/21 11:01, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > >>> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:37:22 PM UTC-4, T wrote: 
> > > > >>>> On 11/18/21 06:38, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>>>> Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes. 
> > > > >>>>> There may be a correlation, but how strong? 
> > > > >>>>> 
> > > > >>>> I sincerely hope you or anyone you love ever get 
> > > > >>>> sensitive. Your outlook will change dramatically. 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>> My having the condition does not change the facts which you seem 
> > > > >>> to be exaggerating. 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >> That is a good excuse for not giving a shit about 
> > > > >> what harm your behavior causes your neighbors. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is the sort of exaggeration I'm referring to. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >> And I am not exaggerating. You need to watch helplessly 
> > > > >> as someone you love gasps in terror trying to breath. 
> > > > >> Or maybe have it happen to you. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You still can't respond to the actual statement I made. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >> Whatsoever you would have others do unto you, do 
> > > > >> unto them. Have you ever heard of "karma"? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Here you have gone off the deep end casting me as someone who 
> > > > > creates problems for you. You've lost it now. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The condition is very real. People like you who can't be rational 
> > > > about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the 
> > > > forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real, 
> > > > but it is psychosomatic. Doesn't make it less real. 
> > > It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as 
> > internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic 
> > illnesses is not relevant. 
> > 
> > how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, 
> > and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example 
> > memories
> I can't speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in 
> perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my 
> eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware 
> of any smell but later discovered that an odourless 'air freshener' had 
> been installed without my knowledge. 
> 
> Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I 
> can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would 
> rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It's called 
> 'learning'.

I had no idea  you were affected so profoundly.  Is there anything about this in the MSDS for the substances you are talking about?  

-- 

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On 11/18/21 13:58, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things, and smells are already know to be
> powerful triggers of for example memories

You research and test it.

Here you go:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25682122/

Assessment of cerebral blood flow in patients with multiple chemical 
sensitivity using near-infrared spectroscopy--recovery after olfactory 
stimulation: a case-control study


Abstract

Objectives: Multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is a chronic acquired 
disorder characterized by non-specific symptoms in multiple organ 
systems associated with exposure to odorous chemicals. We previously 
observed significant activations in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) during 
olfactory stimulation using several different odorants in patients with 
MCS by near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) imaging. We also observed that 
the patients with MCS did not adequately distinguish non-odorant in the 
late stage of the repeated olfactory stimulation test. The sensory 
recovery of the olfactory system in the patients with MCS may process 
odors differently from healthy subjects after olfactory stimulation.

Methods: We examined the recovery process of regional cerebral blood 
flow (rCBF) after olfactory stimulation in patients with MCS. NIRS 
imaging was performed in 6 patients with MCS and in 6 controls. The 
olfactory stimulation test was continuously repeated 10 times. The study 
also included a subjective assessment of the physical and psychological 
status and of the perception of irritating and hedonic odors.

Results: After olfactory stimulation, significant activations were 
observed in the PFC of patients with MCS on both the right and left 
sides compared with controls. The activations were specifically strong 
in the orbitofrontal cortex (OFC). Compared with controls, autonomic 
perception and feelings identification were poorer in patients with MCS. 
OFC is associated with stimuli response and the representation of 
preferences.

Conclusions: These results suggest that a past strong exposure to 
hazardous chemicals activates the PFC during olfactory stimuli in 
patients with MCS, and a strong activation in the OFC remains after the 
stimuli.


Yup. It is real.

On 11/19/21 15:22, Don Y wrote:
> It sort of defeats the purpose of having an HE washer
> but it's made a noticeable difference in skin irritation
> for each of us.

Adding some vinegar to the rinse water will pull
out a lot of the leftover detergent.

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/18/21 14:32, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> I am after getting other people chemicals out of
>>> my cloths.  I have tried stuff for hunters and
>>> it does not work.
> 
>> which product for hunters did you try?
> 
> Don't remember.  They all gave a member of my family
> asthma and skin rashes

Sounds like a family of wackos. No advice will help these folks.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:26:22 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: 
> > 
> > > torsdag den 18. november 2021 kl. 22.18.51 UTC+1 skrev 
> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: 
> > > > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:48:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> > > > > On 18/11/2021 20.22, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > > > On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
> > > > > >> On 11/18/21 11:01, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > > >>> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:37:22 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 11/18/21 06:38, Rick C wrote: 
> > > > > >> 
> > > > > >>>>> Having asthma does not equate to being sensitive to perfumes.
> > > > > >>>>> There may be a correlation, but how strong? 
> > > > > >>>>> 
> > > > > >>>> I sincerely hope you or anyone you love ever get 
> > > > > >>>> sensitive. Your outlook will change dramatically. 
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> My having the condition does not change the facts which you seem
> > > > > >>> to be exaggerating. 
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >> That is a good excuse for not giving a shit about 
> > > > > >> what harm your behavior causes your neighbors. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is the sort of exaggeration I'm referring to. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >> And I am not exaggerating. You need to watch helplessly 
> > > > > >> as someone you love gasps in terror trying to breath. 
> > > > > >> Or maybe have it happen to you. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You still can't respond to the actual statement I made. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >> Whatsoever you would have others do unto you, do 
> > > > > >> unto them. Have you ever heard of "karma"? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Here you have gone off the deep end casting me as someone who
> > > > > > creates problems for you. You've lost it now. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The condition is very real. People like you who can't be rational
> > > > > about it and only talk in terms of emotion should stay away from the
> > > > > forefront or others will think we are all like you. Yes, it is real,
> > > > > but it is psychosomatic. Doesn't make it less real. 
> > > > It is not psychosomatic (caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as
> > > internal conflict or stress). Anything you say about psychosomatic
> > > illnesses is not relevant. 
> > > 
> > > how can you rules out it is psychosomatic? the mind can do weird things,
> > > and smells are already know to be powerful triggers of for example
> > > memories
> > I can't speak for everyone, but in my case some of the chemicals in
> > perfumes act as neurotoxins, causing confusion, nausea and making my
> > eyes unable to focus. This has happened on occasions when I was unaware
> > of any smell but later discovered that an odourless 'air freshener' had
> > been installed without my knowledge. 
> > 
> > Where there is a psychological element, it is when I avoid perfumes I
> > can smell in case they contain substances that are toxic to me. I would
> > rather do that than wait to see if they make me ill. It's called 
> > 'learning'.
> 
> I had no idea  you were affected so profoundly.  Is there anything about
>this in the MSDS for the substances you are talking about?

I haven't been able to identify the substances because the manufacturers
aren't under any obligation to disclose them ('perfume' is unique in
this respect).  I believe some research bodies have conducted
independent tests  and found banned carcinogens and other known toxins,
but I don't have copies of these results.

[I shan't be able to respond to your replies for a couple of days
because I shall be out of internet contact]

-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk