On 2020-08-04 16:10, John Larkin wrote:> On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT), bulegoge@columbus.rr.com > wrote: > >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >> >> >>The >> Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research after >>the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with fake>> scientists. >> >>> > I was working with a biggish laser company, IC lithography. One guy > said "Yeah, those Koreans are tough, but nothing like as tough as > those Dutch guys." > > No-lockdown Sweden isn't doing as bad as some nearby countries. > We'll really find out in winter. >The Dutch are famously stubborn and full of unsolicited advice. This has stood them in good stead for a thousand years or so. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Dutch scientists contradict scientists on settled science
Started by ●August 4, 2020
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 2020-08-04 16:10, John Larkin wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT), bule...@columbus.rr.com > > wrote: > > > >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html > >> > >> > >>The > >> Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research after > >> > the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with fake > >> scientists. > >> > >> > > > > > I was working with a biggish laser company, IC lithography. One guy > > said "Yeah, those Koreans are tough, but nothing like as tough as > > those Dutch guys." > > > > No-lockdown Sweden isn't doing as bad as some nearby countries. > > We'll really find out in winter. > > > The Dutch are famously stubborn and full of unsolicited advice. This > has stood them in good stead for a thousand years or so. ;)The Netherlands has only been a country since 1581. Generalisation that go back further tend to go back to the Batavians - who were around two thousand years ago. When I lived in Netherlands, I lived in Nijmegen, which has two thousand years of documented history going back to the time when there was a big Roman military establishment there. Maastricht argued about the "documented" bit - they had a monastery during the early post-Roman period, which kept on writing, when Nijmegen didn't - but the archeologists are pretty confident that Nijmegen continued to exist, even if the stuff that got written there then hasn't lasted. Dutch science is fine, and has been for as long as there has been science worth talking about. The first secretary of the UK Royal Society was Henry Oldenburg - a German, originally from Bremen - and a lot of his correspondence was with Dutch scientists and philosophers (including Baruch Spinoza, Christiaan Huygens and his father, Constantijn Huygens, and Antoni van Leeuwenhoek). -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 8/4/2020 5:30 PM, Joerg wrote:> On 2020-08-04 13:47, Martin Brown wrote: >> On 04/08/2020 19:39, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote: >>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >>> >>> >>> >>> The Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research >>> after the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with >>> fake scientists. >> >> The science on wearing masks is rather limited. They certainly protect >> the environment from the wearer but outdoors they are mostly irrelevant >> provided that you keep your distance from others. Even that social >> distancing varies quite remarkably with country 2m in the UK (except >> where it is now 1m) and 6' (aka 1.5m) in most of the rest of the world. >> >> Actually they may well be right given just how badly the average member >> of the public wear these masks it may just result in them having a false >> sense of security. The Dutch approach of only wearing them on public >> transport and in confined spaces may actually be more effective. >> >> People fiddle with their masks and touch their eyes way too often for >> them to be effective as protection against infection. We are obliged now >> to call them "face coverings" because "mask" is a four letter word! >> >> Holland is doing a much better job of it than their neighbour Belgium >> where I used to live. Similar countries with similar population density >> and demographics but a radically different approaches. Belgium's hard >> lockdown has not served them at all well - it is unclear why at present. >> >> The Dutch must be doing something right so it is too soon to tell... >> > > These are the official numbers from El Dorado County in California where > I live, now that they (finally!) also list the recovered cases: > > http://analogconsultants.com/ng/sed/COVID_1.jpg > > Doesn't look like crisis-mode to me. About 200,000 residents, out of > which one is in the hospital. One. New cases dropping off since about a > month. The few remaining cases largely concentrate in areas such as Lake > Tahoe where people from Silicon Valley have a vacation home or go > gambling on the Nevada side of town during the day. > > New cases August-1: One. > New cases August-2: Two. > > This is a conservative-minded county where people wear masks where it > makes sense and not where some bureaucrat says. In the supermarket we > do, of course. While walking the dogs? Heck no.True patriots only want a policeman up someone else's ass, not their own. Not big surprise.> Brewpubs will happily serve you a beer if you order some "token food" > (mandated, for whatever stupid reason). > > It seems we must be doing something right in El Dorado County. Yes, > Gerhard, this may be another planet after all and I like it :-) >
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 8/4/2020 6:51 PM, John Larkin wrote:> On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 14:30:31 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2020-08-04 13:47, Martin Brown wrote: >>> On 04/08/2020 19:39, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote: >>>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >>>> >>>> >>>> The Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research >>>> after the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with >>>> fake scientists. >>> >>> The science on wearing masks is rather limited. They certainly protect >>> the environment from the wearer but outdoors they are mostly irrelevant >>> provided that you keep your distance from others. Even that social >>> distancing varies quite remarkably with country 2m in the UK (except >>> where it is now 1m) and 6' (aka 1.5m) in most of the rest of the world. >>> >>> Actually they may well be right given just how badly the average member >>> of the public wear these masks it may just result in them having a false >>> sense of security. The Dutch approach of only wearing them on public >>> transport and in confined spaces may actually be more effective. >>> >>> People fiddle with their masks and touch their eyes way too often for >>> them to be effective as protection against infection. We are obliged now >>> to call them "face coverings" because "mask" is a four letter word! >>> >>> Holland is doing a much better job of it than their neighbour Belgium >>> where I used to live. Similar countries with similar population density >>> and demographics but a radically different approaches. Belgium's hard >>> lockdown has not served them at all well - it is unclear why at present. >>> >>> The Dutch must be doing something right so it is too soon to tell... >>> >> >> These are the official numbers from El Dorado County in California where >> I live, now that they (finally!) also list the recovered cases: >> >> http://analogconsultants.com/ng/sed/COVID_1.jpg >> >> Doesn't look like crisis-mode to me. About 200,000 residents, out of >> which one is in the hospital. One. New cases dropping off since about a >> month. The few remaining cases largely concentrate in areas such as Lake >> Tahoe where people from Silicon Valley have a vacation home or go >> gambling on the Nevada side of town during the day. >> >> New cases August-1: One. >> New cases August-2: Two. >> >> This is a conservative-minded county where people wear masks where it >> makes sense and not where some bureaucrat says. In the supermarket we >> do, of course. While walking the dogs? Heck no. >> >> Brewpubs will happily serve you a beer if you order some "token food" >> (mandated, for whatever stupid reason). >> >> It seems we must be doing something right in El Dorado County. Yes, >> Gerhard, this may be another planet after all and I like it :-) > > Worldometer reports one death total so far in your county, looks like > about July 1. Cases peaked mid-June and are way, way below peak now. > > Most everywhere you look, you see a bell-shaped blip of cases about a > month or so wide FWHM. That's the chracteristic waveform of this > thing. Mitigations may just change the shape, stretch out the tail or > create secondary peaks of similar shape. A few countries are showing > secondary case peaks bigger than the first peak, but looks like about > the same waveform. > > Maybe someone can answer my question: in places without lockdowns and > with low reported case totals, why do cases peak and fall off, to > close to zero? Where is the exponential growth? > > When I ask this question, people either ignore it or think they should > insult me instead of answering. > >It's pretty simple: the virus will continue to infect until it has nowhere to go, either because it has infected everyone (with a toll of death and serious injury that is fairly predictable), it is cut off from a supply of new hosts (distancing and masks), or everyone it comes in contact with is immune (immunizations, which as yet do not exist for COVID and in the best case are still months to years away). If it looks like something else is happening, see previous paragraph
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote in <6a8bed74-2f4a-436b-8ffe-ca874d7a1103o@googlegroups.com>:>https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-n >o-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html > > >The Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research after the science is settled. It must suck to live in a >country with fake scientists.Well, I am in the Netherlands, we have a very low corona problem here, bit increasing now, some busy parts of the big cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam now require facemasks, as does public transport. The situation is looked at on a daily basis and per region. We have a very high quality medical research here at world famous universities. If you look at the UK where a total trump slave named boris wants the people to get less fat to fight whatever it is that eats his brain... And to leave the EU, just an other populist targeting the ignorant Anyways due to glowball worming the waves will rule Britannica soon. When you flee and land on the continent coast bring some Euros so you can buy dry clothes... And do something about your UK TV programs, it is simpler to give everybody a DVD (invented in the Netherlands) or whatever so they do not have to wait again for the Saint and Agatha or chocolate factory or ..... over and over again.... From: https://www.tvguide.co.uk/?catcolor=&systemid=79&gridspan=09:00 Only When I Laugh Watch Only When I Laugh online The Saint Watch The Saint online Robin of Sherwood Watch Robin of Sherwood online Dempsey and Makepeace Watch Dempsey and Makepeace online Minder Watch Minder online The Professionals Watch The Professionals online The Sweeney Watch The Sweeney online The Saint Watch The Saint online Robin of Sherwood Watch Robin of Sherwood online Demps Poor people, brain wash... The Beatles were OK. Been a long long time yer mama should know
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 2020-08-04 16:10, John Larkin wrote:> On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT), bulegoge@columbus.rr.com > wrote: > >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >> >> >>The >> >>Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research after>>the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with fake>> scientists. >> >>> > I was working with a biggish laser company, IC lithography. One guy > said "Yeah, those Koreans are tough, but nothing like as tough as > those Dutch guys." > > No-lockdown Sweden isn't doing as bad as some nearby countries. We'll > really find out in winter. >The Dutch are famously stubborn and full of unsolicited advice. This has stood them in good stead for a thousand years or so. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 05/08/2020 11:50, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 2020-08-04 16:10, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT), bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote: >> >>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >>>>>> The > Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research after >>> > the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with fake >>> scientists. > >> >> I was working with a biggish laser company, IC lithography. One guy >> said "Yeah, those Koreans are tough, but nothing like as tough as >> those Dutch guys." >> >> No-lockdown Sweden isn't doing as bad as some nearby countries. We'll >> really find out in winter.Sweden's population density outside of a handful of major cities is low enough that they can probably get away without a national hard lockdown. Their people are all fairly sensible and reasonably fit. Even so they still lost control of Covid-19 in the care home setting with predictable results.> The Dutch are famously stubborn and full of unsolicited advice. This > has stood them in good stead for a thousand years or so. ;)Pragmatic is the word you are looking for. They have a reputation in adjoining Belgium for being avid caravanners and for taking a sack of their own Dutch potatoes on holiday with them. They were a very serious sea faring naval power in the past. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 2020-08-04 16:47, Martin Brown wrote:> On 04/08/2020 19:39, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote: >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html >> >> >> The Dutch scientists do not follow science by continuing research >> after the science is settled. It must suck to live in a country with >> fake scientists. > > The science on wearing masks is rather limited. They certainly protect > the environment from the wearer but outdoors they are mostly irrelevant > provided that you keep your distance from others. Even that social > distancing varies quite remarkably with country 2m in the UK (except > where it is now 1m) and 6' (aka 1.5m) in most of the rest of the world.Um, 6 feet is 182.88 cm.> > Actually they may well be right given just how badly the average member > of the public wear these masks it may just result in them having a false > sense of security. The Dutch approach of only wearing them on public > transport and in confined spaces may actually be more effective.The N95 ones are too hard to breathe through unless you're just sitting there, and the T-shirt cloth ones don't do a lot about the sizes of particles that other people might breathe in. (They'll catch big loogeys though.) ;)> > People fiddle with their masks and touch their eyes way too often for > them to be effective as protection against infection. We are obliged now > to call them "face coverings" because "mask" is a four letter word! > > Holland is doing a much better job of it than their neighbour Belgium > where I used to live. Similar countries with similar population density > and demographics but a radically different approaches. Belgium's hard > lockdown has not served them at all well - it is unclear why at present. > > The Dutch must be doing something right so it is too soon to tell... >I wear a mask when I'm in the store or someplace like that, but primarily to be polite to the people who work there. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
On 2020-08-05 07:03, Martin Brown wrote:> On 05/08/2020 11:50, Phil Hobbs wrote:> >> The Dutch are famously stubborn and full of unsolicited advice. This >> has stood them in good stead for a thousand years or so. ;) > > Pragmatic is the word you are looking for.No, I'm looking for "stubborn and full of unsolicited advice." Good advice, bad advice, no apparent pattern there except that you usually didn't ask for it. There's a reason for the expression "Dutch uncle". <https://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_uncle>.> They have a reputation in adjoining Belgium for being avid caravanners > and for taking a sack of their own Dutch potatoes on holiday with them. > They were a very serious sea faring naval power in the past.Sure thing, till they got their asses handed to them by the English. I've got a lot of time for Dutchmen actually, as long as they're being stubborn about the right things, which they often are. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 5, 20202020-08-05
Am 05.08.20 um 13:28 schrieb Phil Hobbs:> I wear a mask when I'm in the store or someplace like that, but > primarily to be polite to the people who work there.Me too, but primarily for the same reason I have a 10 dB pad on the input of my spectrum analyzer normally.> CheersGerhard I should have done that before I shot my SNA-33. :-(
