On 11/27/2018 04:18 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-11-27 12:43, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: >>>> >>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done >>>> many times before. >>> >>> I think the point is there is no lunch. Barely even a light snack... >>> Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it. I am sure they didn't make >>> the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't >>> exist anyway). If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids >>> they would have promoted them more. It really is that simple. >>> >> >> That is what I've heard as well. However, instead of simply throwing in >> the towel like they did in the past with compact and micro cars they >> should have rolled up the sleeves and find out why this is so. Why does >> Toyota turn a profit with hybrids and we don't? Why are theirs more >> reliable? >> >> >>> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the >>> race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to >>> show they are making the Bolt. Maybe in a decade when all the dust >>> has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel >>> vehicle race. >>> >> >> Or be totally left in the dust by foreign manufacturers. This has >> happened time and again. Remember when the US was leader of the pack >> with CCD sensors? And with LCD arrays? And with ... > > Huh? Are you actually familiar with the EV market??? The US ***IS*** the leader in BEVs. Haven't you heard about a little known startup called Tesla? They seem to be eating not only lunches, but breakfasts and dinners as well. They are selling in less than a year as many model 3s as Volts sold in their 8 year span and Tesla is still ramping up. > > But then Tesla is opening a factory in China. Maybe they will move all Tesla production there and close the Fremont factory, who knows?Tesla loves paying a 25% tariff on steel and 10% on aluminum, too. NOT!
GM Is Dropping the Volt
Started by ●November 27, 2018
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On 11/27/2018 03:55 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote: >> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: >>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs. >>> >>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt >>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt >>> >>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. I wonder why sales were never very high? >>> >>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives. >>> >> >> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't. >> >> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG >> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer). >> >> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the >> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car. >> >> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost >> as if they don't really want to sell them. > > What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical? > > They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one.You say they didn't make any money on the Volt and they lose money on the Bolt, gosh GM sure has made a lot of electric cars for a company not making money on any of them. How do they stay in business? They don't get sent Musk-level checks lol You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times. The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to put enough miles on to get home. But I suppose that depends on where you live. Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at $10 for two or three hours. Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to any charger.> > I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure. But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster. GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet. Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea. > > Rick C. > > Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209 >The technology to make a car like the Model 3 at a 35k price point didn't exist circa 2007-2008 when the Volt entered design, seems hardly fair to criticize them for not selling enough of a car they couldn't make!
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On 11/27/2018 03:48 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 11/27/18 1:44 PM, Winfield Hill wrote: >> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote... >>> >>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be >>> ending as part of GM's cut backs. >>> >>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, >>> and ending production of the Chevy Volt >>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt >>> >>> >>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent >>> hybrid auto with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. >>> I wonder why sales were never very high? >> >> Two months ago I considered buying a Volt. I want a plugin >> car with a gas-engine backup. An alternate was a Prius Prime, >> which I bought, because of its superior electronic safety features. >> And because it had a better cargo-area scheme. My understanding >> is that a more attractive Volt-like crossover will be introduced. >> Such a car probably would have won my buy, over the Prius Prime. >> >> > > Given that GM is trying to get the feds to mandate electric cars, I > expect so. > > They're all a bunch of rent-seeking crony capitalists. > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs >The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which was essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to develop the Model 3. Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the 2011 model year. I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've paid for it!
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:22:55 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:> On 11/27/2018 04:18 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: > >> On 2018-11-27 12:43, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > >>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done > >>>> many times before. > >>> > >>> I think the point is there is no lunch. Barely even a light snack... > >>> Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it. I am sure they didn't make > >>> the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't > >>> exist anyway). If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids > >>> they would have promoted them more. It really is that simple. > >>> > >> > >> That is what I've heard as well. However, instead of simply throwing in > >> the towel like they did in the past with compact and micro cars they > >> should have rolled up the sleeves and find out why this is so. Why does > >> Toyota turn a profit with hybrids and we don't? Why are theirs more > >> reliable? > >> > >> > >>> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the > >>> race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to > >>> show they are making the Bolt. Maybe in a decade when all the dust > >>> has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel > >>> vehicle race. > >>> > >> > >> Or be totally left in the dust by foreign manufacturers. This has > >> happened time and again. Remember when the US was leader of the pack > >> with CCD sensors? And with LCD arrays? And with ... > > > > Huh? Are you actually familiar with the EV market??? The US ***IS*** the leader in BEVs. Haven't you heard about a little known startup called Tesla? They seem to be eating not only lunches, but breakfasts and dinners as well. They are selling in less than a year as many model 3s as Volts sold in their 8 year span and Tesla is still ramping up. > > > > But then Tesla is opening a factory in China. Maybe they will move all Tesla production there and close the Fremont factory, who knows? > > Tesla loves paying a 25% tariff on steel and 10% on aluminum, too. NOT!It is making cars in the US that they will be paying tariffs on imported steel and aluminum. I don't think there is currently a tariff on imported cars. But I expect that will happen within the next two years. However, it will go away very soon after those two years are up. I expect most automakers are playing the long game. :) Rick C. Tesla referral code ++ https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:29:34 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:> On 11/27/2018 03:55 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > >>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs. > >>> > >>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt > >>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt > >>> > >>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. I wonder why sales were never very high? > >>> > >>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives. > >>> > >> > >> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't. > >> > >> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG > >> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer). > >> > >> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the > >> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car. > >> > >> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost > >> as if they don't really want to sell them. > > > > What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical? > > > > They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one. > > You say they didn't make any money on the Volt and they lose money on > the Bolt, gosh GM sure has made a lot of electric cars for a company not > making money on any of them. How do they stay in business? They don't > get sent Musk-level checks lolThey make a profit by selling ICEs. I would think a smart feller like yourself would know that. Actually, they aren't staying in business, they are getting out. That's the whole point of this thread. Didn't you read the subject? You seem to have goofed up the attribution here. This is my post.> You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt > because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times. > The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local > driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to > put enough miles on to get home. But I suppose that depends on where > you live. Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at > $10 for two or three hours. Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to > any charger. > > > > I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure. But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster. GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet. Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea. > > > > Rick C. > > > > Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > The technology to make a car like the Model 3 at a 35k price point > didn't exist circa 2007-2008 when the Volt entered design, seems hardly > fair to criticize them for not selling enough of a car they couldn't make!No, that technology didn't exist until Elon Musk invented it... er, will invent. ;) You would expect a company as big as GM to have a few smart fellers who would know not to sell a car they have no hope of making money from... oh, yeah, they did know that, but they wanted to make California happy. Rick C. Tesla referral code --- https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:36:56 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:> > The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which was > essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments > regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to > develop the Model 3. > > Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a > half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the > 2011 model year. > > I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've > paid for it!Yeah! It's surprising that if you only spend a little in development you end up with a car few people want. Oh, wait, that's *not* surprising I guess. Well, good thing for the Tesla investors that they spent so much money developing a car that they can't sell them fast enough. Rick C. Tesla referral code --+ https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On 11/27/18 4:36 PM, bitrex wrote:> On 11/27/2018 03:48 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 11/27/18 1:44 PM, Winfield Hill wrote: >>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote... >>>> >>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be >>>> ending as part of GM's cut backs. >>>> >>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, >>>> and ending production of the Chevy Volt >>>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt >>>> >>>> >>>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent >>>> hybrid auto with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. >>>> I wonder why sales were never very high? >>> >>> Two months ago I considered buying a Volt. I want a plugin >>> car with a gas-engine backup. An alternate was a Prius Prime, >>> which I bought, because of its superior electronic safety features. >>> And because it had a better cargo-area scheme. My understanding >>> is that a more attractive Volt-like crossover will be introduced. >>> Such a car probably would have won my buy, over the Prius Prime. >>> >>> >> >> Given that GM is trying to get the feds to mandate electric cars, I >> expect so. >> >> They're all a bunch of rent-seeking crony capitalists. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs >> > > The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which was > essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments > regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to > develop the Model 3. > > Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a > half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the > 2011 model year. > > I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've > paid for it!Not that Musk isn't an even bigger rent seeker. He's just better at it, is all. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
bitrex wrote...> > Also the Prius is a slushbox and looks like a dog's dinner.The Prius, yes. Not the Prius Prime, a new design, check it out, very stylish, good and inside viewing. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On 11/27/2018 04:44 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:29:34 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote: >> On 11/27/2018 03:55 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote: >>>> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs. >>>>> >>>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt >>>>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt >>>>> >>>>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. I wonder why sales were never very high? >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't. >>>> >>>> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG >>>> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer). >>>> >>>> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the >>>> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car. >>>> >>>> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost >>>> as if they don't really want to sell them. >>> >>> What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical? >>> >>> They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one. >> >> You say they didn't make any money on the Volt and they lose money on >> the Bolt, gosh GM sure has made a lot of electric cars for a company not >> making money on any of them. How do they stay in business? They don't >> get sent Musk-level checks lol > > They make a profit by selling ICEs. I would think a smart feller like yourself would know that. Actually, they aren't staying in business, they are getting out. That's the whole point of this thread. Didn't you read the subject? > > You seem to have goofed up the attribution here. This is my post. >> You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt >> because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times. >> The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local >> driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to >> put enough miles on to get home. But I suppose that depends on where >> you live. Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at >> $10 for two or three hours. Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to >> any charger. >>> >>> I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure. But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster. GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet. Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea. >>> >>> Rick C. >>> >>> Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209 >>> >> >> The technology to make a car like the Model 3 at a 35k price point >> didn't exist circa 2007-2008 when the Volt entered design, seems hardly >> fair to criticize them for not selling enough of a car they couldn't make! > > No, that technology didn't exist until Elon Musk invented it... er, will invent. ;) > > You would expect a company as big as GM to have a few smart fellers who would know not to sell a car they have no hope of making money from... oh, yeah, they did know that, but they wanted to make California happy. > > Rick C. > > Tesla referral code --- https://ts.la/richard11209 >Don't know what evidence you have that GM hasn't turned a profit on 'em, isn't consistent with what they've said themselves
Reply by ●November 27, 20182018-11-27
On 2018-11-27 13:08, bitrex wrote:> On 11/27/2018 03:45 PM, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-11-27 12:35, bitrex wrote: >>> On 11/27/2018 03:27 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>> On 2018-11-27 11:54, bitrex wrote: >>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:42 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>> On 2018-11-27 11:33, bitrex wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:11 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote in >>>>>>>> news:645c497e-db00-43f4-a88c-d3e163dab3a6@googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid >>>>>>>>> auto >>>>>>>>> with a lot going for it. I'm sorry to see it go. I wonder why >>>>>>>>> sales >>>>>>>>> were never very high? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> A bad model, IMO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nonsense it was the best-reviewed sedan GM was making as of 2018 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://repairpal.com/cars/compare/chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius >>>>>> >>>>>> Quote "Chevrolet Volt $582 Average Annual Repair Cost" >>>>>> >>>>>> ... and quote "Toyota Prius $423 Average Annual Repair Cost" >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think the Volt is a bad design but there is obviously room >>>>>> for >>>>>> improvement. >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Basically I think for the most part everyone who really wanted this >>>>> half-and-half split-personality gas-electric type design already >>>>> wanted >>>>> one, they sold around 250k of them I think. >>>>> >>>>> There wasn't really much further to go with this design without >>>>> breaking >>>>> the budget or the form factor, you have to lug around both a battery >>>>> pack and gas engine, that limits your options for improvement. To do >>>>> more you'd have to use a larger platform, turn it into a crossover or >>>>> something. Probably easier just to clean-sheet it. >>>>> >>>>> 8 years isn't a bad run but sales were slumping compared to a high of >>>>> around 35,000 a few years back. I feel they could've pushed it better >>>>> but cutting older models that will be hard to refresh, for whatever >>>>> reason aren't selling and have already sold quite a bit seems fairly >>>>> sensible to me >>>> >>>> >>>> All true, provided that the manufacturer has an immediate replacement >>>> in that very same vehicle category. It is not smart to announce an >>>> obsolescence before that is the case. >>> >>> They do, the all-electric Bolt crossover SUV. It's expected that class >>> of vehicle will be GM's way forward with electric vehicle technology. >>> >> >> All-electric is _not_ the same market segment at all. Those cars are >> not suitable for anyone who has to occasionally use them long distance >> or lives in a place with a very harsh winter. >> >> A hybrid can only be replaced by another hybrid or the customers will >> flock to the competition. > > They're selling pretty good in Korea, Americans hate small cars in > general, the managers of the big old guard US automakers hate them too > for their low margins. >Then I wonder why there are all those small cars in our neighborhood. Toyota Corolla (we've got one as well), VW Jetta, various small Subaru, Nissan Sentra, Fiat 500, and so on. Heck, even little Smart cars. Americans like big trucks. Bigger is better. However, that's not so much the case anymore for sedans. Even the last hold-out family (they had a beautiful full-size Cadillac sedan in pearl-white) has now switched to a small Japanese car. This is a normal middle-class neighborhood, almost suburban.>>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done many >>>> times before. >>>> >>> >>> Circa 2010 the Volt was impressive on paper as both a pure hybrid car >>> and an electric vehicle. >>> >>> Since then ICE efficiency and pure-hybrid technology has improved >>> somewhat, and all-electric technology has improved a lot. >>> >>> The Volt's specs, even the second gen, aren't really impressive anymore >>> as either an electric car based on range or charging time, or a >>> gas-hybrid as compared to say the current gen Prius. And while some >>> people who really value flexibility will still buy it I think it's hard >>> to sell a car based on ambiguous "gender identity" alone. >> >> >> True, it has to sell on its merits. Aside from performance specs that >> is predominantly the price and even more so the reputation in terms of >> reliability. The latter is the reason why we bought two Japanese >> vehicles when we moved to the US. Well, the Toyota was actually >> manufacturered in the US so it has supported American jobs. >> > > There are or were plans to sell a re-badged variant of the Volt in China > under the Buick marque, which has brand-name cachet there in the way BMW > does in America. Don't know if those are off now too or not. I think the > plan was to manufacture them there anyway.I think the Chinese don't like us much right now :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
