GM Is Dropping the Volt

On 11/27/2018 09:32 PM, speff wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 16:29:34 UTC-5, bitrex  wrote:
>> On 11/27/2018 03:55 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com  wrote:
>>>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>>>>>
>>>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>>>>>    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
>>>>>
>>>>>   From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high?
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't.
>>>>
>>>> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG
>>>> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer).
>>>>
>>>> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the
>>>> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car.
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost
>>>> as if they don't really want to sell them.
>>>
>>> What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical?
>>>
>>> They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one.
>>
>> You say they didn't make any money on the Volt and they lose money on
>> the Bolt, gosh GM sure has made a lot of electric cars for a company not
>> making money on any of them. How do they stay in business? They don't
>> get sent Musk-level checks lol
>>
>> You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt
>> because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times.
>> The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local
>> driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to
>> put enough miles on to get home.  But I suppose that depends on where
>> you live.  Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at
>> $10 for two or three hours.  Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to
>> any charger.
>>>
>>> I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure.  But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster.  GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet.  Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea.
>>>
>>>     Rick C.
>>>
>>>     Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209
>>>
>>
>> The technology to make a car like the Model 3 at a 35k price point
>> didn't exist circa 2007-2008 when the Volt entered design, seems hardly
>> fair to criticize them for not selling enough of a car they couldn't make!
> 
> Anecdotally, and I don't know if it's true, one of the main attractions of making electrics and hybrids for US car makers is that it lowers their fleet gas
> consumption average to help them meet EPA standards, yet they can sell the
> high-profit gas-guzzling larger vehicles. If those standards are loosened, there
> is less attraction in selling the electrics.
> 
> --Spehro Pefhany
> 
> 

Historically in the US you hardly had to go to all the trouble of 
designing an electric or hybrid vehicle from the ground up to game that 
system, you just sell "flex fuel" vehicles that can run E85 (only 
requires some fairly inexpensive plumbing modifications) or build as 
many SUVs as possible on not-truck platforms to get them classified as 
not-trucks.

The rules were probably changed somewhat under Obama, the Volt was 
already well into the design phase when Obama was elected

On 11/27/2018 09:32 PM, speff wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 16:29:34 UTC-5, bitrex  wrote:
>> On 11/27/2018 03:55 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com  wrote:
>>>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>>>>>
>>>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>>>>>    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
>>>>>
>>>>>   From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high?
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't.
>>>>
>>>> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG
>>>> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer).
>>>>
>>>> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the
>>>> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car.
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost
>>>> as if they don't really want to sell them.
>>>
>>> What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical?
>>>
>>> They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one.
>>
>> You say they didn't make any money on the Volt and they lose money on
>> the Bolt, gosh GM sure has made a lot of electric cars for a company not
>> making money on any of them. How do they stay in business? They don't
>> get sent Musk-level checks lol
>>
>> You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt
>> because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times.
>> The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local
>> driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to
>> put enough miles on to get home.  But I suppose that depends on where
>> you live.  Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at
>> $10 for two or three hours.  Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to
>> any charger.
>>>
>>> I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure.  But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster.  GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet.  Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea.
>>>
>>>     Rick C.
>>>
>>>     Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209
>>>
>>
>> The technology to make a car like the Model 3 at a 35k price point
>> didn't exist circa 2007-2008 when the Volt entered design, seems hardly
>> fair to criticize them for not selling enough of a car they couldn't make!
> 
> Anecdotally, and I don't know if it's true, one of the main attractions of making electrics and hybrids for US car makers is that it lowers their fleet gas
> consumption average to help them meet EPA standards, yet they can sell the
> high-profit gas-guzzling larger vehicles. If those standards are loosened, there
> is less attraction in selling the electrics.
> 
> --Spehro Pefhany
> 
> 

One of the main attractions of electric vehicles for US car makers is 
that while from time to time they engage in real innovation, large US 
car-markers like Ford and GM are highly resistant to it, they hate it, 
they much prefer selling the same thing they always have at ever 
increasing prices.

Occasionally like around the time of the mid-2000s, when they have been 
backed into a corner and they have a gun to their head with their demise 
imminent they promise to change and "do better" and try something 
different. For a while they do and are sometimes decently successful at 
it, but time passes, management changes, and they slip back into their 
old habits as GM and Ford appear to be doing at the moment.

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:57:40 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 11/27/18 4:36 PM, bitrex wrote:
> > On 11/27/2018 03:48 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> On 11/27/18 1:44 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
> >>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote...
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be
> >>>> ending as part of GM's cut backs.
> >>>>
> >>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants,
> >>>> and ending production of the Chevy Volt
> >>>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent
> >>>> hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.
> >>>> I wonder why sales were never very high?
> >>>
> >>>   Two months ago I considered buying a Volt.  I want a plugin
> >>>   car with a gas-engine backup.  An alternate was a Prius Prime,
> >>>   which I bought, because of its superior electronic safety features.
> >>>   And because it had a better cargo-area scheme.  My understanding
> >>>   is that a more attractive Volt-like crossover will be introduced.
> >>>   Such a car probably would have won my buy, over the Prius Prime.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Given that GM is trying to get the feds to mandate electric cars, I 
> >> expect so.
> >>
> >> They're all a bunch of rent-seeking crony capitalists.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
> >>
> > 
> > The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which was 
> > essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments 
> > regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to 
> > develop the Model 3.
> > 
> > Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a 
> > half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the 
> > 2011 model year.
> > 
> > I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've 
> > paid for it!
> 
> Not that Musk isn't an even bigger rent seeker.  He's just better at it, 
> is all.

There's a Musk video where he claims to have been weeks from going 
belly up on the model 3.  I think, as with all products, time will tell.

George H. 

> 
> Cheers
> 
> Phil Hobbs
> 
> -- 
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> 
> 160 North State Road #203
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
> 
> hobbs at electrooptical dot net
> http://electrooptical.net

On 11/27/2018 01:08 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
> 
> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>   https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
> 
>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high?
> 
> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.
> 
>    Rick C.
> 
>    Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> 

<http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/trumps-threatens-g-m-closing-ohio-plant-gangster-government.html>

Trump is pissing into the wind here. He doesn't have a dime's bit of 
leverage on GM at this point who will surely close all those plants on 
schedule, leaving all those Real America workers out of a job and tell 
him to fuck himself.

call it "Obama's Revenge" - GM bailout kept US auto workers employed 
long enough to ensure a second term victory for him. On Trump's watch is 
when they end up becoming a liability (as they always actually thought 
of them.) Good luck pal

gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: 

> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as
> part of GM's cut backs.  
> 
> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and
> ending production of the Chevy Volt 
>  https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-
closing-ending-production-chevy-volt 
> 
> From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid
> auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder
> why sales were never very high?

Because your premise is wrong?

Maybe too much technology for a huge company to keep up with.

And Hillary Clinton has a 95% chance of becoming president.
And don't forget the Bob Mueller probe.
And Trump's impeachment.
MAGA!
(Michael Avenatti Got Arrested)

Personally, I couldn't care less about politics, but the cannibal
left suck so badly, it's difficult to not be against them. 






bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

> On 11/27/2018 01:08 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>> 
>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>>   https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
>> 
>>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high?
>> 
>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.
>> 
>>    Rick C.
>> 
>>    Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
>> 
> 
> <http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/trumps-threatens-g-m-closing-ohio-plant-gangster-government.html>
> 
> Trump is pissing into the wind here. He doesn't have a dime's bit of 
> leverage on GM at this point who will surely close all those plants on 
> schedule, leaving all those Real America workers out of a job and tell 
> him to fuck himself.
> 
> call it "Obama's Revenge" - GM bailout kept US auto workers employed 
> long enough to ensure a second term victory for him. On Trump's watch is 
> when they end up becoming a liability (as they always actually thought 
> of them.) Good luck pal
> 

On 11/27/2018 10:23 PM, George Herold wrote:

>>> The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which was
>>> essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments
>>> regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to
>>> develop the Model 3.
>>>
>>> Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a
>>> half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the
>>> 2011 model year.
>>>
>>> I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've
>>> paid for it!
>>
>> Not that Musk isn't an even bigger rent seeker.  He's just better at it,
>> is all.
> 
> There's a Musk video where he claims to have been weeks from going
> belly up on the model 3.  I think, as with all products, time will tell.
> 
> George H.

as an analogy there's the type of company where when management finds 
out 6 months after an employee is hired that they lied about their 
credentials on their resume fires the employee on principle, and the 
type where management says "Yea but...he seems to be doing a pretty good 
job!"

I try to figure out which type I'm working for early on and start 
planning my rapid departure if it turns out to be the latter type

On 11/27/2018 10:56 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/27/2018 10:23 PM, George Herold wrote:
> 
>>>> The Volt was a marvelous car for what they spent on R&D on it, which 
>>>> was
>>>> essentially peanuts of anyone's money, their own or the governments
>>>> regardless, as compared to the $HUGENUM sums Musk and co have spent to
>>>> develop the Model 3.
>>>>
>>>> Circa late 2008 the entire Volt design team consisted of about a
>>>> half-dozen guys total and it was ready for full scale production by the
>>>> 2011 model year.
>>>>
>>>> I would surely hope the Model 3 is a better car considering what we've
>>>> paid for it!
>>>
>>> Not that Musk isn't an even bigger rent seeker.  He's just better at it,
>>> is all.
>>
>> There's a Musk video where he claims to have been weeks from going
>> belly up on the model 3.  I think, as with all products, time will tell.
>>
>> George H.
> 
> as an analogy there's the type of company where when management finds 
> out 6 months after an employee is hired that they lied about their 
> credentials on their resume fires the employee on principle, and the 
> type where management says "Yea but...he seems to be doing a pretty good 
> job!"
> 
> I try to figure out which type I'm working for early on and start 
> planning my rapid departure if it turns out to be the latter type

For example Google is probably the latter type of company

On 27/11/2018 18:08, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
> 
> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt

<snip>

On my newsreader, this comes directly after 'New definition of SI 
units', so perhaps there's a new definition of the volt which has 
dropped slightly?

Cheers
-- 
Clive

Clive Arthur wrote:
> On 27/11/2018 18:08, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as 
>> part of GM's cut backs.
>>
>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and 
>> ending production of the Chevy Volt
> 
> <snip>
> 
> On my newsreader, this comes directly after 'New definition of SI 
> units', so perhaps there's a new definition of the volt which has 
> dropped slightly?


I haven't come across the BIPM's definition for the volt,
but in practice --since the late 1980's-- it has been some
number of Josephson junctions in series, excited with some
given frequency. So really it has been tied to h, e and
the second for quite some time already.

Jeroen Belleman