GM Is Dropping the Volt

On 11/27/18 1:44 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote...
>>
>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be
>> ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>>
>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants,
>> and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
>>
>>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent
>> hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.
>> I wonder why sales were never very high?
> 
>   Two months ago I considered buying a Volt.  I want a plugin
>   car with a gas-engine backup.  An alternate was a Prius Prime,
>   which I bought, because of its superior electronic safety features.
>   And because it had a better cargo-area scheme.  My understanding
>   is that a more attractive Volt-like crossover will be introduced.
>   Such a car probably would have won my buy, over the Prius Prime.
> 
> 

Given that GM is trying to get the feds to mandate electric cars, I 
expect so.

They're all a bunch of rent-seeking crony capitalists.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:42:13 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 November 2018 13:08:59 UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com  wrote:
> > I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.  
> > 
> > GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
> >  https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
> > 
> > From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high? 
> > 
> > On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.  
> > 
> 
> The Bolt is a pretty decent, if small, car; a friend bought one and I've driven in it many times. Pure electric, not hybrid, but quite impressive range, and a bargain here when the provincial government was kicking in $14K CAD subsidy and more for the charging station- recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservative party gov't. 
> 
> It's not really that much GM- the drive train and batteries are made by LG
> in Korea (which endears it to me, but maybe not your typical GM buyer). 
> 
> Long run the pure electrics are probably going to take more and more of the
> market, and cheap gas, if it continues, will squeeze the hybrids. Though there is still the range anxiety issue - so better as a 2nd or 3rd car. 
> 
> Speaking of the Bolt- my friend had to wait months for it.. it is almost
> as if they don't really want to sell them. 

What is the range, door to door, not the theoretical?  

They aren't making many Bolts, likely because they lose money on each one.  You talk about range anxiety but that really doesn't extend to the Bolt because you can't really take it on trips without long charge times.  The term "range anxiety" usually is used for that rather than local driving where you can easily stop someplace with a level 2 charger to put enough miles on to get home.  But I suppose that depends on where you live.  Here the only charger is a campground with a 14-50 outlet at $10 for two or three hours.  Otherwise I have to drive some 25 miles to any charger.  

I can see the Bolt being used as a second car for sure.  But I think with GM's attitude toward them they won't be selling very fast even if they made them faster.  GM just doesn't want to be in that business yet.  Likely they don't want to play second fiddle to Tesla.. or third to Nissan... or fourth to Jag... Well, you get the idea. 

  Rick C. 

  Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2018-11-27 12:43, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-11-27 11:54, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 11/27/2018 02:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-11-27 11:33, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:11 PM,
>>>>> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>>>>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote in
>>>>>> news:645c497e-db00-43f4-a88c-d3e163dab3a6@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
 From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto
>>>>>>> with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I
>>>>>>> wonder why sales were never very high?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> A bad model, IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nonsense it was the best-reviewed sedan GM was making as of
>>>>> 2018
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://repairpal.com/cars/compare/chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Quote "Chevrolet Volt    $582 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>
>>>> ... and quote "Toyota Prius    $423 Average Annual Repair
>>>> Cost"
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the Volt is a bad design but there is obviously
>>>> room for improvement.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Basically I think for the most part everyone who really wanted
>>> this half-and-half split-personality gas-electric type design
>>> already wanted one, they sold around 250k of them I think.
>>>
>>> There wasn't really much further to go with this design without
>>> breaking the budget or the form factor, you have to lug around
>>> both a battery pack and gas engine, that limits your options for
>>> improvement. To do more you'd have to use a larger platform, turn
>>> it into a crossover or something. Probably easier just to
>>> clean-sheet it.
>>>
>>> 8 years isn't a bad run but sales were slumping compared to a
>>> high of around 35,000 a few years back. I feel they could've
>>> pushed it better but cutting older models that will be hard to
>>> refresh, for whatever reason aren't selling and have already sold
>>> quite a bit seems fairly sensible to me
>>
>>
>> All true, provided that the manufacturer has an immediate
>> replacement in that very same vehicle category. It is not smart to
>> announce an obsolescence before that is the case.
>>
>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done
>> many times before.
>
> I think the point is there is no lunch.  Barely even a light snack...
> Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it.  I am sure they didn't make
> the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't
> exist anyway).  If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids
> they would have promoted them more.  It really is that simple.
>

That is what I've heard as well. However, instead of simply throwing in 
the towel like they did in the past with compact and micro cars they 
should have rolled up the sleeves and find out why this is so. Why does 
Toyota turn a profit with hybrids and we don't? Why are theirs more 
reliable?


> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the
> race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to
> show they are making the Bolt.  Maybe in a decade when all the dust
> has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel
> vehicle race.
>

Or be totally left in the dust by foreign manufacturers. This has 
happened time and again. Remember when the US was leader of the pack 
with CCD sensors? And with LCD arrays? And with ...

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/27/2018 03:02 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 2:41:39 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
>> On 11/27/2018 01:08 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>>>
>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants, and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>>>    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt
>>>
>>>   From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales were never very high?
>>
>> Total sales will be around 250k units total over 8 years, not that bad
>> for a "niche" car I'd say.
>>
>> They spent very little effort marketing it, there were factions in GM
>> that didn't want it undercutting market share of other vehicles. It was
>> a EV around-town car and a good long-distance car as well with the range
>> extender engine. You only have to buy one, they'd rather sell two!
>>
>>> On the other hand, with all the advanced electronics on board, maybe this will help with the shortages of the larger surface mount passives.
>>>
>>>     Rick C.
>>>
>>>     Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, I was hoping there'd be a 3rd generation but looks like not to be.
>> But the writing was on the wall for it and rumors had been flying about
>> the possibility of it going away for a year or more.
>>
>> When it came out in 2011 there was nothing like it, there still isn't
>> really its serial-hybrid design is somewhat unique to GM. Other plug-in
>> hybrids like the Honda Clarity always engage the gas engine above 45
>> mph, the Volt was a true EREV you could take it up to top speed on
>> electric power alone.
>>
>> There are many other options in late 2018 (Bolt, Tesla) that are taking
>> market share back and sales have been undeniably sluggish.
> 
> Not sure why you even mentioned the Bolt.  In the article I read I believe the sales of the Bolt were even worse than the sales of the Volt over the last few months.

Gas prices have been cheap and so sales of US-made small cars get 
sluggish it's the way it always is. The Bolt is selling well in Korea 
and they're sticking with it (and making a bunch of  them over there, too.)

The only place the Volt is made is in Detroit and the margins are too 
thin to make money on an 8 y/o design, with a Federal tax credit 
probably going bye-bye and 25% tarrifs on steel.


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, trying to sell a BEV without an adequate charging solution is like selling a gun without ammo.  It was quite humorous the way the salesman reacted when I asked about charging at the Chevy dealer.  You would have thought I had asked about the child molesting uncle.

If GM is successful or not at EVs will be mostly unrelated to whether 
they hold people's hands on charging or not, bespoke charging 
infrastructure is not a matter of primary concern to the majority of 
drivers in the world. I'm sorry we will never agree on this one. :)

The management of Ford and GM North America, as a general rule, fucking 
hates small cars of any kind they really do. They hate their small 
margins and that they can't seem to make them as good as the Asian 
offerings and have to sell on price rather than features. They want to 
sell trucks and SUVs and hit up the government for money every time the 
market for those tanks.

> Even the Tesla Supercharging network is not as universally available as I would like.  I have had to charge at destination chargers and even at J-1772 chargers to get home.  But that is just in a pinch.  If I had to depend on the non-Tesla charging network for charging when not at home I would have never bought a BEV.  That is no small part of why I didn't buy a Bolt.  GM just doesn't care about charging.
> 
>    Rick C.
> 
>    Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209
> 

On 11/27/2018 03:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-11-27 12:35, bitrex wrote:
>> On 11/27/2018 03:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-11-27 11:54, bitrex wrote:
>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-11-27 11:33, bitrex wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:11 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote in
>>>>>>> news:645c497e-db00-43f4-a88c-d3e163dab3a6@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid
>>>>>>>> auto
>>>>>>>> with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why
>>>>>>>> sales
>>>>>>>> were never very high?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>    A bad model, IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nonsense it was the best-reviewed sedan GM was making as of 2018
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://repairpal.com/cars/compare/chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius
>>>>>
>>>>> Quote "Chevrolet Volt    $582 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and quote "Toyota Prius    $423 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the Volt is a bad design but there is obviously room for
>>>>> improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically I think for the most part everyone who really wanted this
>>>> half-and-half split-personality gas-electric type design already wanted
>>>> one, they sold around 250k of them I think.
>>>>
>>>> There wasn't really much further to go with this design without 
>>>> breaking
>>>> the budget or the form factor, you have to lug around both a battery
>>>> pack and gas engine, that limits your options for improvement. To do
>>>> more you'd have to use a larger platform, turn it into a crossover or
>>>> something. Probably easier just to clean-sheet it.
>>>>
>>>> 8 years isn't a bad run but sales were slumping compared to a high of
>>>> around 35,000 a few years back. I feel they could've pushed it better
>>>> but cutting older models that will be hard to refresh, for whatever
>>>> reason aren't selling and have already sold quite a bit seems fairly
>>>> sensible to me
>>>
>>>
>>> All true, provided that the manufacturer has an immediate replacement
>>> in that very same vehicle category. It is not smart to announce an
>>> obsolescence before that is the case.
>>
>> They do, the all-electric Bolt crossover SUV. It's expected that class
>> of vehicle will be GM's way forward with electric vehicle technology.
>>
> 
> All-electric is _not_ the same market segment at all. Those cars are not 
> suitable for anyone who has to occasionally use them long distance or 
> lives in a place with a very harsh winter.
> 
> A hybrid can only be replaced by another hybrid or the customers will 
> flock to the competition.

They're selling pretty good in Korea, Americans hate small cars in 
general, the managers of the big old guard US automakers hate them too 
for their low margins.

>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done many
>>> times before.
>>>
>>
>> Circa 2010 the Volt was impressive on paper as both a pure hybrid car
>> and an electric vehicle.
>>
>> Since then ICE efficiency and pure-hybrid technology has improved
>> somewhat, and all-electric technology has improved a lot.
>>
>> The Volt's specs, even the second gen, aren't really impressive anymore
>> as either an electric car based on range or charging time, or a
>> gas-hybrid as compared to say the current gen Prius. And while some
>> people who really value flexibility will still buy it I think it's hard
>> to sell a car based on ambiguous "gender identity" alone.
> 
> 
> True, it has to sell on its merits. Aside from performance specs that is 
> predominantly the price and even more so the reputation in terms of 
> reliability. The latter is the reason why we bought two Japanese 
> vehicles when we moved to the US. Well, the Toyota was actually 
> manufacturered in the US so it has supported American jobs.
> 

There are or were plans to sell a re-badged variant of the Volt in China 
under the Buick marque, which has brand-name cachet there in the way BMW 
does in America. Don't know if those are off now too or not. I think the 
plan was to manufacture them there anyway.

On 11/27/2018 03:43 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-11-27 11:54, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 11/27/2018 02:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-11-27 11:33, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:11 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>>>>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote in
>>>>>> news:645c497e-db00-43f4-a88c-d3e163dab3a6@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent hybrid auto
>>>>>>> with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why sales
>>>>>>> were never very high?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>     A bad model, IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nonsense it was the best-reviewed sedan GM was making as of 2018
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://repairpal.com/cars/compare/chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius
>>>>
>>>> Quote "Chevrolet Volt    $582 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>
>>>> ... and quote "Toyota Prius    $423 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the Volt is a bad design but there is obviously room for
>>>> improvement.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Basically I think for the most part everyone who really wanted this
>>> half-and-half split-personality gas-electric type design already wanted
>>> one, they sold around 250k of them I think.
>>>
>>> There wasn't really much further to go with this design without breaking
>>> the budget or the form factor, you have to lug around both a battery
>>> pack and gas engine, that limits your options for improvement. To do
>>> more you'd have to use a larger platform, turn it into a crossover or
>>> something. Probably easier just to clean-sheet it.
>>>
>>> 8 years isn't a bad run but sales were slumping compared to a high of
>>> around 35,000 a few years back. I feel they could've pushed it better
>>> but cutting older models that will be hard to refresh, for whatever
>>> reason aren't selling and have already sold quite a bit seems fairly
>>> sensible to me
>>
>>
>> All true, provided that the manufacturer has an immediate replacement in
>> that very same vehicle category. It is not smart to announce an
>> obsolescence before that is the case.
>>
>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done many
>> times before.
> 
> I think the point is there is no lunch.  Barely even a light snack...  Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it.  I am sure they didn't make the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't exist anyway).  If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids they would have promoted them more.  It really is that simple.
> 
> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to show they are making the Bolt.  Maybe in a decade when all the dust has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel vehicle race.
> 
>    Rick C.
> 
>    Tesla referral code -+ https://ts.la/richard11209
> 

GM figured that the US made a good testing ground for their fashion of 
electric vehicle design but that for the moment the big market for cars 
like the Volt and Bolt lies in Asia, probably why the Bolt's design team 
had heavy input from GM Korea's offices.

On 11/27/2018 04:12 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/27/2018 03:43 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-11-27 11:54, bitrex wrote:
>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-11-27 11:33, bitrex wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/27/2018 02:11 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote in
>>>>>>> news:645c497e-db00-43f4-a88c-d3e163dab3a6@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent 
>>>>>>>> hybrid auto
>>>>>>>> with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.  I wonder why 
>>>>>>>> sales
>>>>>>>> were never very high?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>     A bad model, IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nonsense it was the best-reviewed sedan GM was making as of 2018
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://repairpal.com/cars/compare/chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius
>>>>>
>>>>> Quote "Chevrolet Volt    $582 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and quote "Toyota Prius    $423 Average Annual Repair Cost"
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the Volt is a bad design but there is obviously room for
>>>>> improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically I think for the most part everyone who really wanted this
>>>> half-and-half split-personality gas-electric type design already wanted
>>>> one, they sold around 250k of them I think.
>>>>
>>>> There wasn't really much further to go with this design without 
>>>> breaking
>>>> the budget or the form factor, you have to lug around both a battery
>>>> pack and gas engine, that limits your options for improvement. To do
>>>> more you'd have to use a larger platform, turn it into a crossover or
>>>> something. Probably easier just to clean-sheet it.
>>>>
>>>> 8 years isn't a bad run but sales were slumping compared to a high of
>>>> around 35,000 a few years back. I feel they could've pushed it better
>>>> but cutting older models that will be hard to refresh, for whatever
>>>> reason aren't selling and have already sold quite a bit seems fairly
>>>> sensible to me
>>>
>>>
>>> All true, provided that the manufacturer has an immediate replacement in
>>> that very same vehicle category. It is not smart to announce an
>>> obsolescence before that is the case.
>>>
>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done many
>>> times before.
>>
>> I think the point is there is no lunch.  Barely even a light snack...  
>> Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it.  I am sure they didn't make 
>> the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't exist 
>> anyway).  If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids they 
>> would have promoted them more.  It really is that simple.
>>
>> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the 
>> race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to 
>> show they are making the Bolt.  Maybe in a decade when all the dust 
>> has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel 
>> vehicle race.
>>
>>    Rick C.
>>
>>    Tesla referral code -+ https://ts.la/richard11209
>>
> 
> GM figured that the US made a good testing ground for their fashion of 
> electric vehicle design but that for the moment the big market for cars 
> like the Volt and Bolt lies in Asia, probably why the Bolt's design team 
> had heavy input from GM Korea's offices.

Remember it's not like, GM's "job" as an international corporation to 
either employ American workers nor sell strictly to Americans.

On 11/27/2018 03:48 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 11/27/18 1:44 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote...
>>>
>>> I am not at all happy to say the Volt production will be
>>> ending as part of GM's cut backs.
>>>
>>> GM is laying off thousands of workers, closing three plants,
>>> and ending production of the Chevy Volt
>>> https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/26/18112536/gm-layoffs-factory-closing-ending-production-chevy-volt 
>>>
>>>
>>>  From what has been posted here the Volt was an excellent
>>> hybrid auto with a lot going for it.  I'm sorry to see it go.
>>> I wonder why sales were never very high?
>>
>>   Two months ago I considered buying a Volt.  I want a plugin
>>   car with a gas-engine backup.  An alternate was a Prius Prime,
>>   which I bought, because of its superior electronic safety features.
>>   And because it had a better cargo-area scheme.  My understanding
>>   is that a more attractive Volt-like crossover will be introduced.
>>   Such a car probably would have won my buy, over the Prius Prime.
>>
>>
> 
> Given that GM is trying to get the feds to mandate electric cars, I 
> expect so.
> 
> They're all a bunch of rent-seeking crony capitalists.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Phil Hobbs
> 

Ford and GM would probably prefer it if the feds mandated the sale of 
pickup trucks and SUVs it's what they want to make the most for the high 
margins, and what they seem good at doing for the most part.

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-11-27 12:43, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done
> >> many times before.
> >
> > I think the point is there is no lunch.  Barely even a light snack...
> > Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it.  I am sure they didn't make
> > the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't
> > exist anyway).  If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids
> > they would have promoted them more.  It really is that simple.
> >
> 
> That is what I've heard as well. However, instead of simply throwing in 
> the towel like they did in the past with compact and micro cars they 
> should have rolled up the sleeves and find out why this is so. Why does 
> Toyota turn a profit with hybrids and we don't? Why are theirs more 
> reliable?
> 
> 
> > GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the
> > race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to
> > show they are making the Bolt.  Maybe in a decade when all the dust
> > has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel
> > vehicle race.
> >
> 
> Or be totally left in the dust by foreign manufacturers. This has 
> happened time and again. Remember when the US was leader of the pack 
> with CCD sensors? And with LCD arrays? And with ...

Huh?  Are you actually familiar with the EV market???  The US ***IS*** the leader in BEVs.  Haven't you heard about a little known startup called Tesla?  They seem to be eating not only lunches, but breakfasts and dinners as well.  They are selling in less than a year as many model 3s as Volts sold in their 8 year span and Tesla is still ramping up. 

But then Tesla is opening a factory in China.  Maybe they will move all Tesla production there and close the Fremont factory, who knows? 

I don't think it is possible for any car company to move forward with ICEs only at this point.  It may take 20 years, but BEVs will be the primary means of transport as we move forward.  

  Rick C. 

  Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/27/2018 04:18 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-11-27 12:43, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:27:19 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise the competition will eat their lunch, as it has done
>>>> many times before.
>>>
>>> I think the point is there is no lunch.  Barely even a light snack...
>>> Otherwise they wouldn't be canceling it.  I am sure they didn't make
>>> the Volt all these years because of profits (which likely didn't
>>> exist anyway).  If GM had been at all serious about selling hybrids
>>> they would have promoted them more.  It really is that simple.
>>>
>>
>> That is what I've heard as well. However, instead of simply throwing in
>> the towel like they did in the past with compact and micro cars they
>> should have rolled up the sleeves and find out why this is so. Why does
>> Toyota turn a profit with hybrids and we don't? Why are theirs more
>> reliable?
>>
>>
>>> GM needs something to show that they are "interested" in being in the
>>> race, but the emphasis has shifted to BEVs now and they only need to
>>> show they are making the Bolt.  Maybe in a decade when all the dust
>>> has settled GM will have serious contenders in the alternate fuel
>>> vehicle race.
>>>
>>
>> Or be totally left in the dust by foreign manufacturers. This has
>> happened time and again. Remember when the US was leader of the pack
>> with CCD sensors? And with LCD arrays? And with ...
> 
> Huh?  Are you actually familiar with the EV market???  The US ***IS*** the leader in BEVs.  Haven't you heard about a little known startup called Tesla?  They seem to be eating not only lunches, but breakfasts and dinners as well.  They are selling in less than a year as many model 3s as Volts sold in their 8 year span and Tesla is still ramping up.
> 
> But then Tesla is opening a factory in China.  Maybe they will move all Tesla production there and close the Fremont factory, who knows?

You mean "almost surely" I think, not "who knows" ;)

> I don't think it is possible for any car company to move forward with ICEs only at this point.  It may take 20 years, but BEVs will be the primary means of transport as we move forward.
> 
>    Rick C.
> 
>    Tesla referral code +- https://ts.la/richard11209
>