On Friday, 2 December 2022 at 22:50:27 UTC, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson > <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: > > >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin > >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported > >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > >>>>away? > >>> > >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, > >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is > >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased > >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of > >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. > >>> > >>>What are you trying to accomplish? > >>> > >>>Joe Gwinn > >> > >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but > >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we > >> want to move. > > > >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we > >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? > Pi Pico. > > There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy > chip and software instead of buying the board. > > https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ > > It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from > gpio pins.The RP2040 is good at bit-banging as the M0+ has direct access to the i/o pins from the cpus. There are also programmable state machines for more complex i/o. Some of the other Raspberry PIs are of course much faster. I can easily download files from an http server to a Pi4 at about 900Mbit/s. The Compute Module 4 is a very nice device for embedded applications, but they are hard to find at the moment. They have a single lane of PCI-e available for external use. There is a huge matrix of variants with different combinations of memory and WiFi. However, if the RP2040 will do what you need it has the huge advantage of good availability. The processor had stock levels of around 1 million when I last looked and the Pico boards are also readily available. There is now a WiFi version. I recently bought a Netgear MS108EUP 2.5Gbit/s PoE++ switch. The lowest advertised speed is 100Mbit/s. I also have a QNAP QSW-2104-2S switch with 2.5 and 10Gbit/s ports. Again, the lowest advertised speed is 100Mbit/s. I will check whether these switches secretly support 10Mbit/s as well. John
10 mbit ethernet
Started by ●December 2, 2022
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>away? >>>> >>>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>>> >>>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>>> >>>>Joe Gwinn >>> >>>If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >>>it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >>>want to move. >> >>The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need >>not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. >> >>What is the max link length? > >Halfway around the world.That's a tad too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better question is how long is the link to the WAN interface? Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
fredag den 2. december 2022 kl. 23.50.27 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson > <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: > > >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin > >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported > >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > >>>>away? > >>> > >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, > >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is > >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased > >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of > >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. > >>> > >>>What are you trying to accomplish? > >>> > >>>Joe Gwinn > >> > >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but > >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we > >> want to move. > > > >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we > >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? > Pi Pico. > > There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy > chip and software instead of buying the board. > > https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ > > It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from > gpio pins.use an ethernet to spi module instead
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On 12/2/2022 3:27 PM, whit3rd wrote:> Modern chipsets and PHY for 10/100baseT are all you'll likely find; I'd guess > that 100Mbit with error correction is just as good as 10 Mbit, but in any > case all the available support chips are the same because it falls back. > Two-pair 10baseT is very much obsolete, would be hard to find a > dedicated chipset available today. > > CAT6 has twice as many pairs as 10/100 uses. No CAT6 advantage, unless you want > to run two links in a single cable.You can run 1000BaseTX over CAT5e. CAT6 is a PITA to use. Gbe also is easier to use in the sense that switches automatically handle common cabling errors. OTOH, 100BaseTX can save your ass if a cable pair shits the bed! 10BaseT seems to be obsolescent -- maybe not *tomorrow* but RSN. There are no real savings to using 10BaseT over 100BaseTX so... why? [One possible psychological downside is the perception that a product that can't deliver data at 100BaseTX rates looks lame] I think (some of?) my UPSs use 10BaseT but the switch makes all that transparent. And, they aren't really known as data sinks/sources!
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:54:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>>away? >>>>> >>>>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>>>> >>>>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>>>> >>>>>Joe Gwinn >>>> >>>>If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >>>>it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >>>>want to move. >>> >>>The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need >>>not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. >>> >>>What is the max link length? >> >>Halfway around the world. > >That's a tad too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better >question is how long is the link to the WAN interface? > >Joe GwinnA quarter mile would be great, like out to a jet engine on some test stand some distance from a building. People could use fiber links and local switches, but a good long run of CAT6 would be nice. A couple of sites, like Cisco, say that 10baseT is good for 100 meters.
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On 2022-12-03, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:54:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> > wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>>>away? >>>>>> >>>>>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>>>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>>>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>>>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>>>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>>>>> >>>>>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe Gwinn >>>>> >>>>>If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >>>>>it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >>>>>want to move. >>>> >>>>The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need >>>>not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. >>>> >>>>What is the max link length? >>> >>>Halfway around the world. >> >>That's a tad too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better >>question is how long is the link to the WAN interface? >> >>Joe Gwinn > > A quarter mile would be great, like out to a jet engine on some test > stand some distance from a building. > > People could use fiber links and local switches, but a good long run > of CAT6 would be nice. > > A couple of sites, like Cisco, say that 10baseT is good for 100 > meters.10Mbit ethernet can do 500m on rigid coax "10Base-5", so it's probably not a timing problem, just attenuation and distortion 10M uses Manchester coding which puts the most of the information in the 10-20MHz band, doess cat6 signifantly outperform cat3 in that band? I would expect that NEXT would make boosting the signal at the source impractical, but maybe there's a way to have in-line amplifiers -- Jasen.
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
fredag den 2. december 2022 kl. 23.50.27 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson > <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: > > >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin > >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported > >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > >>>>away? > >>> > >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, > >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is > >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased > >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of > >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. > >>> > >>>What are you trying to accomplish? > >>> > >>>Joe Gwinn > >> > >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but > >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we > >> want to move. > > > >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we > >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? > Pi Pico. > > There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy > chip and software instead of buying the board. > > https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ > > It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from > gpio pins.https://docs.wiznet.io/Product/iEthernet/W5100S/w5100s-evb-pico
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 16:13:40 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>fredag den 2. december 2022 kl. 23.50.27 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin: >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson >> <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: >> >> >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >> >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >> >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >> >>>>away? >> >>> >> >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >> >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >> >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >> >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >> >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >> >>> >> >>>What are you trying to accomplish? >> >>> >> >>>Joe Gwinn >> >> >> >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >> >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >> >> want to move. >> > >> >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we >> >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? >> Pi Pico. >> >> There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy >> chip and software instead of buying the board. >> >> https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ >> >> It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from >> gpio pins. > >use an ethernet to spi module insteadWe've done that in the past, with a Lantronix module, but it's clumsy to use and expensive and EOL. Pity the 2040 chip doesn't have a MAC. (did you get my email?)
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 7:06:41 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin: > > Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported > > long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > > away? > I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s > (my normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 > or so. Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only > 10 cm long, it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably > only a DC level thing. Source was Amazon. > > GerhardDo you have a link?
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:>>I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we >>talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? > > Pi Pico. >Ah! understood.> There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy > chip and software instead of buying the board. > > https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ > > It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from > gpio pins. > > >
