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John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:09:21 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
><usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck
>>><eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
>>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
>>>>> away?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop.
>>>>
>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair
>>>>"Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were standardized in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its origins in the automotive industry and may be useful in other short-distance applications where substantial electrical noise is present.[3] 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting connections up to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are finding applications implementing the Internet of things."
>>>>
>>>>Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available.
>>>>
>>>>Arie
>>>
>>> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6,
>>> so normal computers and hubs and things would work.
>>
>>10BASE-T has only even needed half as many pairs and half as much CAT.
>>(2 pairs on CAT3). Did you perhaps mean 10 gigbabit Ethernet above?
>
> No, I was wondering if building a box that can only support 10M over
> the usual CAT5/6 and RJ45s was a dead end.
Nah, 10m isn't going anywhere until fast ethernet (100m) and gigabit die
(and let's face it, that's not going to happen anytime soon). gbit has
it written in that it'll fall back to 100m ... likewise FE to 10m.
That being said, I don't think you're gonna find a PHY that "only" does
10m these days.
> [...]
> I can envision very long CAT6 runs, so 10M would actually be good.
>
Anything more than 100 meters is technically outside spec, and while it
should continue to work, may prove to be flaky. I'd avoid it as much as
possible in electrically "noisy" environments (machine shops / other
industrial places).
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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
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Reply by Les Cargill●December 11, 20222022-12-11
John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:54:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin
>>>>>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
>>>>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
>>>>>>> away?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured,
>>>>>> mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is
>>>>>> fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased
>>>>>> speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of
>>>>>> activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are you trying to accomplish?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe Gwinn
>>>>>
>>>>> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but
>>>>> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we
>>>>> want to move.
>>>>
>>>> The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need
>>>> not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> What is the max link length?
>>>
>>> Halfway around the world.
>>
>> That's a tad too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better
>> question is how long is the link to the WAN interface?
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
> A quarter mile would be great, like out to a jet engine on some test
> stand some distance from a building.
>
> People could use fiber links and local switches, but a good long run
> of CAT6 would be nice.
>
> A couple of sites, like Cisco, say that 10baseT is good for 100
> meters.
>
Optical can be quite cheap and much more reliable.
--
Les Cargill
Reply by Les Cargill●December 11, 20222022-12-11
John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
>>> away?
>>
>> The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured,
>> mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is
>> fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased
>> speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of
>> activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles.
>>
>> What are you trying to accomplish?
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but
> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we
> want to move.
>
You mean the Pico? A reg'lar RasPi has .... 100Baset?
GB? already.
It should be fine but try it first with your kit. IMO, the
cheap switches are more likely to work - just plug those into the
rest of the network.
--
Les Cargill
Reply by Les Cargill●December 11, 20222022-12-11
John Larkin wrote:
> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
> away?
>
Reply by Dimiter_Popoff●December 6, 20222022-12-06
On 12/6/2022 10:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
>>> away?
>>
>> It's alive and well in the industrial world, sadly. The low speed
>> isn't the issue, it's the old garbage computers (embedded ones) that
>> work at those speeds that's the issue. Been working on
>> monitoring/automation with some modbus over ethernet devices, and I'm
>> really having a hard time grasping just how obsolete and insecure this
>> stuff must be.
>
> Industrial automation machines are expensive pieces of hardware,
> expected to function for many years, sometimes decennia. The
> choice to use common of the shelf computers and software to
> control them is a bad choice, because those computers are
> garbage even before they hit the market. They're *intended*
> to be garbage right from the start.
>
> Jeroen Belleman (Who refuses to buy any machine or instrument
> with Micro$oft Windows in it.)
Hah! Turns out sane people are not extinct after all...
======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Reply by Jeroen Belleman●December 6, 20222022-12-06
Cydrome Leader wrote:
> John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
>> away?
>
> It's alive and well in the industrial world, sadly. The low speed isn't
> the issue, it's the old garbage computers (embedded ones) that work at
> those speeds that's the issue. Been working on monitoring/automation with
> some modbus over ethernet devices, and I'm really having a hard time
> grasping just how obsolete and insecure this stuff must be.
Industrial automation machines are expensive pieces of hardware,
expected to function for many years, sometimes decennia. The
choice to use common of the shelf computers and software to
control them is a bad choice, because those computers are
garbage even before they hit the market. They're *intended*
to be garbage right from the start.
Jeroen Belleman (Who refuses to buy any machine or instrument
with Micro$oft Windows in it.)
Reply by Cydrome Leader●December 6, 20222022-12-06
John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported
> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go
> away?
It's alive and well in the industrial world, sadly. The low speed isn't
the issue, it's the old garbage computers (embedded ones) that work at
those speeds that's the issue. Been working on monitoring/automation with
some modbus over ethernet devices, and I'm really having a hard time
grasping just how obsolete and insecure this stuff must be.
That while pipeline hack was probably way easier than they hammed it up to
be.
Reply by Phil Hobbs●December 5, 20222022-12-05
John May wrote:
> On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 11:28:26 PM UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> John May wrote:
>>> On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:46:55 PM UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> John May wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:19:12 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 03.12.22 um 17:06 schrieb John May:
>>>>>>> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 7:06:41 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin:
>>>>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be
>>>>>>>>> supported long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is
>>>>>>>>> it likely to go away?
>>>>>>>> I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s (my
>>>>>>>> normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 or so.
>>>>>>>> Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only 10 cm long,
>>>>>>>> it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably only a DC level
>>>>>>>> thing. Source was Amazon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gerhard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have a link?
>>>>>> Unfortunately not. I can see in the history that this was in 4/2014
>>>>>> and it did cost €65. No longer available, however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you happen to have a 89441A, you can open a BSD style socket on
>>>>>> it over Ethernet and write or read from there. It simply accepts /
>>>>>> answers GPIP interface text strings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have written a program that makes many FFTs over n octaves,
>>>>>> collects the data and uses gnuplot to create a 7 decade FFT with
>>>>>> log x-axis. The right display for phase noise. C source, runs on
>>>>>> Linux in my case. There is also a mostly completed GPIB solution
>>>>>> with a USB dongle. My program developped problems over the years
>>>>>> with the socket interface. It turned out that you must seek()
>>>>>> explicitely when changing the direction of data flow, and Linux
>>>>>> started to enforce that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gerhard
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Gerhard. I've used a similar type of adapter for my 89441A
>>>>> for many years, but it gave up the ghost recently. I've been looking
>>>>> for a replacement but the choice seems to be quite limited, and the
>>>>> price of them seems to have shot up.
>>>>>
>>>> I have one with a dead main power supply board. What's wrong with yours?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>>>
>>> My 89441A is fine, it's my external 10Base-T adapter that failed, hence the MAU transceiver (AT-210TS) replacement.
>>>
>> Ah. We generally ignore the built-in Ethernet and use Prologix
>> GPIB-Ethernet adapters. We commonly use them with several instruments
>> at once.
>
> I often like to have the VSA control panel on the PC display so prefer to have a real LAN interface to run the X server. The ethernet to GPIB adapters are certainly useful for my other HP kit of that era.
>
Interesting--I didn't know it could do that. Once I get the PSU fixed
I'll have to try it out.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by John May●December 4, 20222022-12-04
On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 11:28:26 PM UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> John May wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:46:55 PM UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> John May wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:19:12 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Am 03.12.22 um 17:06 schrieb John May:
> >>>>> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 7:06:41 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin:
> >>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be
> >>>>>>> supported long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is
> >>>>>>> it likely to go away?
> >>>>>> I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s (my
> >>>>>> normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 or so.
> >>>>>> Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only 10 cm long,
> >>>>>> it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably only a DC level
> >>>>>> thing. Source was Amazon.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gerhard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you have a link?
> >>>> Unfortunately not. I can see in the history that this was in 4/2014
> >>>> and it did cost €65. No longer available, however.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you happen to have a 89441A, you can open a BSD style socket on
> >>>> it over Ethernet and write or read from there. It simply accepts /
> >>>> answers GPIP interface text strings.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have written a program that makes many FFTs over n octaves,
> >>>> collects the data and uses gnuplot to create a 7 decade FFT with
> >>>> log x-axis. The right display for phase noise. C source, runs on
> >>>> Linux in my case. There is also a mostly completed GPIB solution
> >>>> with a USB dongle. My program developped problems over the years
> >>>> with the socket interface. It turned out that you must seek()
> >>>> explicitely when changing the direction of data flow, and Linux
> >>>> started to enforce that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gerhard
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Gerhard. I've used a similar type of adapter for my 89441A
> >>> for many years, but it gave up the ghost recently. I've been looking
> >>> for a replacement but the choice seems to be quite limited, and the
> >>> price of them seems to have shot up.
> >>>
> >> I have one with a dead main power supply board. What's wrong with yours?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
>
> >
> > My 89441A is fine, it's my external 10Base-T adapter that failed, hence the MAU transceiver (AT-210TS) replacement.
> >
> Ah. We generally ignore the built-in Ethernet and use Prologix
> GPIB-Ethernet adapters. We commonly use them with several instruments
> at once.
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> http://electrooptical.net
> http://hobbs-eo.com
I often like to have the VSA control panel on the PC display so prefer to have a real LAN interface to run the X server. The ethernet to GPIB adapters are certainly useful for my other HP kit of that era.
Reply by Phil Hobbs●December 4, 20222022-12-04
John May wrote:
> On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:46:55 PM UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> John May wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:19:12 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
>>> wrote:
>>>> Am 03.12.22 um 17:06 schrieb John May:
>>>>> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 7:06:41 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin:
>>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be
>>>>>>> supported long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is
>>>>>>> it likely to go away?
>>>>>> I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s (my
>>>>>> normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 or so.
>>>>>> Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only 10 cm long,
>>>>>> it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably only a DC level
>>>>>> thing. Source was Amazon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gerhard
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a link?
>>>> Unfortunately not. I can see in the history that this was in 4/2014
>>>> and it did cost €65. No longer available, however.
>>>>
>>>> If you happen to have a 89441A, you can open a BSD style socket on
>>>> it over Ethernet and write or read from there. It simply accepts /
>>>> answers GPIP interface text strings.
>>>>
>>>> I have written a program that makes many FFTs over n octaves,
>>>> collects the data and uses gnuplot to create a 7 decade FFT with
>>>> log x-axis. The right display for phase noise. C source, runs on
>>>> Linux in my case. There is also a mostly completed GPIB solution
>>>> with a USB dongle. My program developped problems over the years
>>>> with the socket interface. It turned out that you must seek()
>>>> explicitely when changing the direction of data flow, and Linux
>>>> started to enforce that.
>>>>
>>>> Gerhard
>>>
>>> Thanks Gerhard. I've used a similar type of adapter for my 89441A
>>> for many years, but it gave up the ghost recently. I've been looking
>>> for a replacement but the choice seems to be quite limited, and the
>>> price of them seems to have shot up.
>>>
>> I have one with a dead main power supply board. What's wrong with yours?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> My 89441A is fine, it's my external 10Base-T adapter that failed, hence the MAU transceiver (AT-210TS) replacement.
>
Ah. We generally ignore the built-in Ethernet and use Prologix
GPIB-Ethernet adapters. We commonly use them with several instruments
at once.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com