On 2022-12-02, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin: >> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >> away? > > I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s > (my normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 > or so. Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only > 10 cm long, it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably > only a DC level thing. Source was Amazon.When I was playing with 10Base-2 over short cables (like 3m segment length) I found that I could put both terminators on one end of the cable and it would still work. I think the collision detection is a "DC level thing" -- Jasen.
10 mbit ethernet
Started by ●December 2, 2022
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On 12/2/2022 21:46, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:49:25 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> > wrote: > >> On 12/2/2022 19:21, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck >>> <eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>> away? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop. >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair >>>> "Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were standardized in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its origins in the automotive industry and may be useful in other short-distance applications where substantial electrical noise is present.[3] 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting connections up to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are finding applications implementing the Internet of things." >>>> >>>> Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available. >>>> >>>> Arie >>> >>> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6, >>> so normal computers and hubs and things would work. >>> >> >> Made me check for the dp8392... Still can be found (obviously old >> stock). >> Not many (but me...) have a coaxial Ethernet still running. And well, >> the 10Mbps hub has just one Nukeman behind itself... The hub is >> (I think) just physical, no "buffer and then retransmit". But works >> connected to a 10/100 hub to the "normal" network here. For how long >> hubs and PCs will allow that ... your guess is no worse than mine. >> Though some bridging will have to be feasible for a longer while, >> there are many 10/100 etc. switches around. > > We found coax ethernet to be flakey. Even short stubs or changes in > cable length could break it.Well on a single cable just one bad node can cause problems of course. But in general it works fine as long as all nodes behave.> > There don't seem to be many Catx hubs or hub chips around either. > Everything is a switch, which is usually good. >A switch is good - better - in most typical circumstances. But you cannot use a switch to snoop on another host on the network like with a hub; then the latency with a hub is none, if that matters in some scenario.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:09:21 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:>On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck >><eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote: >> >>>On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote: >>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>> away? >>>> >>> >>>Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop. >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair >>>"Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were standardized in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its origins in the automotive industry and may be useful in other short-distance applications where substantial electrical noise is present.[3] 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting connections up to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are finding applications implementing the Internet of things." >>> >>>Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available. >>> >>>Arie >> >> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6, >> so normal computers and hubs and things would work. > >10BASE-T has only even needed half as many pairs and half as much CAT. >(2 pairs on CAT3). Did you perhaps mean 10 gigbabit Ethernet above?No, I was wondering if building a box that can only support 10M over the usual CAT5/6 and RJ45s was a dead end. PCs and switches would have to work at 10M long-term. I can envision very long CAT6 runs, so 10M would actually be good.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> > wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>away? >> >>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >> >>What are you trying to accomplish? >> >>Joe Gwinn > > If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but > it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we > want to move.I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability?
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On 2022-12-02 22:30, Jim Jackson wrote:> On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>> away? >>> >>> The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>> mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>> fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>> speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>> activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>> >>> What are you trying to accomplish? >>> >>> Joe Gwinn >> >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >> want to move. > > I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we > talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability?Long ago, we had some computers wired, in theory for 100M. But it was actually doing 10M. I found that the cable twisted pairs were 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, instead of 1-2, 3-6, 4-5, 7-8. Electrically (DC) it is the same, but the transmission properties were different, the cards detected errors, and they dropped to 10M. So we replaced those cables and the network went to 100 M. Dunno what the cables were intended for, or if it was just an error when making the connectors (I did not have the tools to make them). -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 1:17:38 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:> No, I was wondering if building a box that can only support 10M over > the usual CAT5/6 and RJ45s was a dead end. > > PCs and switches would have to work at 10M long-term. > > I can envision very long CAT6 runs, so 10M would actually be good.Modern chipsets and PHY for 10/100baseT are all you'll likely find; I'd guess that 100Mbit with error correction is just as good as 10 Mbit, but in any case all the available support chips are the same because it falls back. Two-pair 10baseT is very much obsolete, would be hard to find a dedicated chipset available today. CAT6 has twice as many pairs as 10/100 uses. No CAT6 advantage, unless you want to run two links in a single cable.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 14:27:07 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:>On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 1:17:38 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote: > >> No, I was wondering if building a box that can only support 10M over >> the usual CAT5/6 and RJ45s was a dead end. >> >> PCs and switches would have to work at 10M long-term. >> >> I can envision very long CAT6 runs, so 10M would actually be good. > >Modern chipsets and PHY for 10/100baseT are all you'll likely find; I'd guess >that 100Mbit with error correction is just as good as 10 Mbit, but in any >case all the available support chips are the same because it falls back. >Two-pair 10baseT is very much obsolete, would be hard to find a >dedicated chipset available today. > >CAT6 has twice as many pairs as 10/100 uses. No CAT6 advantage, unless you want >to run two links in a single cable.The advantage is to use all the standard stuff, PCs and cables and switches and RJ45 connectors. Cat5 would certainly be OK at 10M. Price is crazy low on either type of cable.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>away? >> >>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >> >>What are you trying to accomplish? >> >>Joe Gwinn > >If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >want to move.The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. What is the max link length? Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:>On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>away? >>> >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>> >>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>> >>>Joe Gwinn >> >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >> want to move. > >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability?Pi Pico. There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy chip and software instead of buying the board. https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from gpio pins.
Reply by ●December 2, 20222022-12-02
On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>away? >>> >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>> >>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>> >>>Joe Gwinn >> >>If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >>it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >>want to move. > >The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need >not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. > >What is the max link length?Halfway around the world.
