lørdag den 3. december 2022 kl. 16.32.03 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 16:13:40 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > > >fredag den 2. december 2022 kl. 23.50.27 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin: > >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson > >> <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: > >> > >> >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin > >> >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported > >> >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > >> >>>>away? > >> >>> > >> >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, > >> >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is > >> >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased > >> >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of > >> >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. > >> >>> > >> >>>What are you trying to accomplish? > >> >>> > >> >>>Joe Gwinn > >> >> > >> >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but > >> >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we > >> >> want to move. > >> > > >> >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we > >> >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? > >> Pi Pico. > >> > >> There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy > >> chip and software instead of buying the board. > >> > >> https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ > >> > >> It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from > >> gpio pins. > > > >use an ethernet to spi module instead > We've done that in the past, with a Lantronix module, but it's clumsy > to use and expensive and EOL.using lots of cpu resources to bit bang a phy is also a bit clumsy, and you'll still need an IC anyway https://docs.wiznet.io/Product/iEthernet/W5100S/w5100s-evb-pico $9.95 https://eshop.wiznet.io/shop/module/w5100s-evb-pico/ IC maybe a few $ more than just a phy https://www.digikey.dk/da/products/detail/wiznet/W5100S-L/8789606> Pity the 2040 chip doesn't have a MAC. > > (did you get my email?)yes, thanks for the heads up, I rarely check that email
10 mbit ethernet
Started by ●December 2, 2022
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 20:41:01 -0800, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:54:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >wrote: > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:49:15 -0800, John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>>>>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>>>away? >>>>>> >>>>>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >>>>>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >>>>>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >>>>>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >>>>>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >>>>>> >>>>>>What are you trying to accomplish? >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe Gwinn >>>>> >>>>>If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >>>>>it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >>>>>want to move. >>>> >>>>The Raspberry ought to be able to drive a faster NIC, so the Pi need >>>>not talk all that fast. May need a fast buffer memory somewhere. >>>> >>>>What is the max link length? >>> >>>Halfway around the world. >> >>That's a tad too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better >>question is how long is the link to the WAN interface? >> >>Joe Gwinn > >A quarter mile would be great, like out to a jet engine on some test >stand some distance from a building. > >People could use fiber links and local switches, but a good long run >of CAT6 would be nice. > >A couple of sites, like Cisco, say that 10baseT is good for 100 >meters.A quarter-mile is 400 meters, so 100 meters isn't going to cut it. Of wired 10 Mbit enet, only 10BASE-T1L would work. Don't know if it's still on the market. Maybe, but only for old design. The industrial world has gone to fiber. Well, not quite: Analog Devices still makes the chips: .<https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/the-new-10base-t1l-standard.html> Look here for other options: .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_physical_layer> Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 03:40:47 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>fredag den 2. december 2022 kl. 23.50.27 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin: >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:30:10 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson >> <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote: >> >> >On 2022-12-02, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 14:10:29 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:14:09 -0800, John Larkin >> >>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >> >>>>long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >> >>>>away? >> >>> >> >>>The standard will never go away. The 10 Mbit speed has endured, >> >>>mostly for factory automation. What is taking that niche over is >> >>>fiber (versus CAT<something> twisted pair), largely for increased >> >>>speed and essentially total resistance to EMI. There is a lot of >> >>>activity involving use of plastic fiber in such as automobiles. >> >>> >> >>>What are you trying to accomplish? >> >>> >> >>>Joe Gwinn >> >> >> >> If I use a Raspberry Pi, there is an easy way to add ethernet, but >> >> it's apparently reliable at 10M only. That's enough for the data we >> >> want to move. >> > >> >I'm intrigued by you saying only "reliable" at 10M. Which RPi are we >> >talking about and who says? And what is the unreliability? >> Pi Pico. >> >> There is an add-on board to do Ethernet. We could use the same phy >> chip and software instead of buying the board. >> >> https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-add-ethernet-to-raspberry-pi-pico/ >> >> It's reported to be flakey at 100M. They are bit-banging the phy from >> gpio pins. > >https://docs.wiznet.io/Product/iEthernet/W5100S/w5100s-evb-picoCool. https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wiznet/W5100S-EVB-PICO/15516855 I ordered a couple. They messed up by not making it easy to remote a USBC connector. Pico Pi has test pads for USB. If we use that in our (hopefully many) boxes and it goes EOL, we could (with a bunch of effort) design an equivalent and drop them in.
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On 2.12.2022 23.15, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> On 12/2/2022 21:46, John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:49:25 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 12/2/2022 19:21, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck >>>> <eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be >>>>>> supported >>>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>> away? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used >>>>> for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and >>>>> automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop. >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair >>>>> "Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single >>>>> twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were standardized >>>>> in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its origins in the >>>>> automotive industry and may be useful in other short-distance >>>>> applications where substantial electrical noise is present.[3] >>>>> 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting connections up >>>>> to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are finding applications >>>>> implementing the Internet of things." >>>>> >>>>> Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available. >>>>> >>>>> Arie >>>> >>>> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6, >>>> so normal computers and hubs and things would work. >>>> >>> >>> Made me check for the dp8392... Still can be found (obviously old >>> stock). >>> Not many (but me...) have a coaxial Ethernet still running. And well, >>> the 10Mbps hub has just one Nukeman behind itself... The hub is >>> (I think) just physical, no "buffer and then retransmit". But works >>> connected to a 10/100 hub to the "normal" network here. For how long >>> hubs and PCs will allow that ... your guess is no worse than mine. >>> Though some bridging will have to be feasible for a longer while, >>> there are many 10/100 etc. switches around. >> >> We found coax ethernet to be flakey. Even short stubs or changes in >> cable length could break it. > > Well on a single cable just one bad node can cause problems of course. > But in general it works fine as long as all nodes behave. >> >> There don't seem to be many Catx hubs or hub chips around either. >> Everything is a switch, which is usually good. >> > > A switch is good - better - in most typical circumstances. > But you cannot use a switch to snoop on another host on the network > like with a hub; then the latency with a hub is none, if that > matters in some scenario.Modern switches - even many of the inexpensive ones - are programmable with several options. One of the usual options is configuring one of the ports to function as a monitor port to sniff on traffic on other ports. There are usually options to look at incoming and outgoing traffic separately. -- -TV
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On 12/3/2022 21:43, Tauno Voipio wrote:> On 2.12.2022 23.15, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> On 12/2/2022 21:46, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:49:25 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/2/2022 19:21, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck >>>>> <eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be >>>>>>> supported >>>>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>>>>>> away? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used >>>>>> for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and >>>>>> automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair >>>>>> "Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single >>>>>> twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were >>>>>> standardized in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its >>>>>> origins in the automotive industry and may be useful in other >>>>>> short-distance applications where substantial electrical noise is >>>>>> present.[3] 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting >>>>>> connections up to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are >>>>>> finding applications implementing the Internet of things." >>>>>> >>>>>> Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arie >>>>> >>>>> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6, >>>>> so normal computers and hubs and things would work. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Made me check for the dp8392... Still can be found (obviously old >>>> stock). >>>> Not many (but me...) have a coaxial Ethernet still running. And well, >>>> the 10Mbps hub has just one Nukeman behind itself... The hub is >>>> (I think) just physical, no "buffer and then retransmit". But works >>>> connected to a 10/100 hub to the "normal" network here. For how long >>>> hubs and PCs will allow that ... your guess is no worse than mine. >>>> Though some bridging will have to be feasible for a longer while, >>>> there are many 10/100 etc. switches around. >>> >>> We found coax ethernet to be flakey. Even short stubs or changes in >>> cable length could break it. >> >> Well on a single cable just one bad node can cause problems of course. >> But in general it works fine as long as all nodes behave. >>> >>> There don't seem to be many Catx hubs or hub chips around either. >>> Everything is a switch, which is usually good. >>> >> >> A switch is good - better - in most typical circumstances. >> But you cannot use a switch to snoop on another host on the network >> like with a hub; then the latency with a hub is none, if that >> matters in some scenario. > > Modern switches - even many of the inexpensive ones - are programmable > with several options. One of the usual options is configuring one of > the ports to function as a monitor port to sniff on traffic on other > ports. There are usually options to look at incoming and outgoing > traffic separately. >Did not know that, thanks! The switches here are not very new and quite inexpensive and I can't see how I could talk them into doing that (via which interface etc.) but just knowing this is a possibility is enough, I'll find out if I need it. So far I have the 10 Mbps hub which has several RJ-45-s and a coaxial line and I still can put behind it what I need to snoop at.
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Saturday, 3 December 2022 at 20:04:50 UTC, Dimiter Popoff wrote:> On 12/3/2022 21:43, Tauno Voipio wrote: > > On 2.12.2022 23.15, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: > >> On 12/2/2022 21:46, John Larkin wrote: > >>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:49:25 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 12/2/2022 19:21, John Larkin wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:05:20 +0100, Arie de Muijnck > >>>>> <eternal....@ademu.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 2022-12-02 17:14, John Larkin wrote: > >>>>>>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be > >>>>>>> supported > >>>>>>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go > >>>>>>> away? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Single pair 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L are alive and kicking. Used > >>>>>> for industrial (replacement of sensor / actuator field busses) and > >>>>>> automotive. Long distances, and/or multidrop. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair > >>>>>> "Two new variants of 10 megabit per second Ethernet over a single > >>>>>> twisted pair, known as 10BASE-T1S and 10BASE-T1L, were > >>>>>> standardized in IEEE Std 802.3cg-2019.[2] 10BASE-T1S has its > >>>>>> origins in the automotive industry and may be useful in other > >>>>>> short-distance applications where substantial electrical noise is > >>>>>> present.[3] 10BASE-T1L is a long-distance Ethernet, supporting > >>>>>> connections up to 1 km in length. Both of these standards are > >>>>>> finding applications implementing the Internet of things." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Connectors, cables and most important PHY's are available. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arie > >>>>> > >>>>> That sounds good. I was mostly thinking about the usual 4-pair CAT6, > >>>>> so normal computers and hubs and things would work. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Made me check for the dp8392... Still can be found (obviously old > >>>> stock). > >>>> Not many (but me...) have a coaxial Ethernet still running. And well, > >>>> the 10Mbps hub has just one Nukeman behind itself... The hub is > >>>> (I think) just physical, no "buffer and then retransmit". But works > >>>> connected to a 10/100 hub to the "normal" network here. For how long > >>>> hubs and PCs will allow that ... your guess is no worse than mine. > >>>> Though some bridging will have to be feasible for a longer while, > >>>> there are many 10/100 etc. switches around. > >>> > >>> We found coax ethernet to be flakey. Even short stubs or changes in > >>> cable length could break it. > >> > >> Well on a single cable just one bad node can cause problems of course. > >> But in general it works fine as long as all nodes behave. > >>> > >>> There don't seem to be many Catx hubs or hub chips around either. > >>> Everything is a switch, which is usually good. > >>> > >> > >> A switch is good - better - in most typical circumstances. > >> But you cannot use a switch to snoop on another host on the network > >> like with a hub; then the latency with a hub is none, if that > >> matters in some scenario. > > > > Modern switches - even many of the inexpensive ones - are programmable > > with several options. One of the usual options is configuring one of > > the ports to function as a monitor port to sniff on traffic on other > > ports. There are usually options to look at incoming and outgoing > > traffic separately. > > > Did not know that, thanks! The switches here are not very new and > quite inexpensive and I can't see how I could talk them into doing > that (via which interface etc.) but just knowing this is a possibility > is enough, I'll find out if I need it. So far I have the 10 Mbps hub > which has several RJ-45-s and a coaxial line and I still can put behind > it what I need to snoop at.You need to look for "managed switch" and "port mirroring". John
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 8:41:14 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:54:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > wrote: > > >On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 15:16:57 -0800, John Larkin > ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > >>On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 17:45:37 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> > >>wrote:> >...too far for any kind of Ethernet. Maybe the better > >question is how long is the link to the WAN interface?> A quarter mile would be great, like out to a jet engine on some test > stand some distance from a building. > > People could use fiber links and local switches, but a good long run > of CAT6 would be nice. > > A couple of sites, like Cisco, say that 10baseT is good for 100 > meters.Yeah, but that's the spec for 100baseT also. As for quarter-mile, you'd be better off using a crash cart, battery or generator and rack of electronics, that's off the grid.
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
Am 03.12.22 um 17:06 schrieb John May:> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 7:06:41 PM UTC, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: >> Am 02.12.22 um 17:14 schrieb John Larkin: >>> Does anyone know the status of 10 Mbit ethernet? Might it be supported >>> long-term for some industrial uses or something? Is it likely to go >>> away? >> I've bought an interface box 10 MBit/s BNC <-> 1000 MBit/s >> (my normal LAN) for my 89441A FFT analyzer. Maybe €29,99 >> or so. Works wonderfully. Even if the RG58 cable is only >> 10 cm long, it needs both 50 Ohm terminations. Probably >> only a DC level thing. Source was Amazon. >> >> Gerhard > > Do you have a link?Unfortunately not. I can see in the history that this was in 4/2014 and it did cost €65. No longer available, however. If you happen to have a 89441A, you can open a BSD style socket on it over Ethernet and write or read from there. It simply accepts / answers GPIP interface text strings. I have written a program that makes many FFTs over n octaves, collects the data and uses gnuplot to create a 7 decade FFT with log x-axis. The right display for phase noise. C source, runs on Linux in my case. There is also a mostly completed GPIB solution with a USB dongle. My program developped problems over the years with the socket interface. It turned out that you must seek() explicitely when changing the direction of data flow, and Linux started to enforce that. Gerhard
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
Am 03.12.22 um 23:00 schrieb whit3rd:> Yeah, but that's the spec for 100baseT also.No wonder, they cannot wait forever for collision detection. Gerhard
Reply by ●December 3, 20222022-12-03
On 12/3/2022 1:04 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:>> Modern switches - even many of the inexpensive ones - are programmable >> with several options. One of the usual options is configuring one of >> the ports to function as a monitor port to sniff on traffic on other >> ports. There are usually options to look at incoming and outgoing >> traffic separately. > > Did not know that, thanks! The switches here are not very new and > quite inexpensive and I can't see how I could talk them into doingThe switch has its own IP address and a configuration page(s) where you can set the features that the switch presents. Most often, a TELNET or HTTP connection (to the switch's IP) provides access to those settings (and status).> that (via which interface etc.) but just knowing this is a possibility > is enough, I'll find out if I need it. So far I have the 10 Mbps hub > which has several RJ-45-s and a coaxial line and I still can put behind > it what I need to snoop at.The hub, of course, suffers from being a bottleneck to *all* traffic as it repeats every octet on every interface. A switch would allow ports A and B to use 100% of the bandwidth in a "conversation" and ports C and D to use *another* 100% of the bandwidth in *their* "conversation". When I ran 10Base2, the biggest downside was the fact that the total bandwidth was confined to ~10Mb/s. So, if I was transfering a file between two hosts, it seriously impacted the rest of the traffic on the network.
