On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:> >On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >> > >Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to >adapt. > >Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. > >Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds.> >Like we've been doing since our distant ancestors left the trees!The cost is low but the drama high with that method.
copper crisis?
Started by ●July 15, 2022
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."These are cool: https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1 Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1 How can they wind that inductor?
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 16.15.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >> > >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > > > >If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and > >generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise > >compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, > >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > > > >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." > These are cool: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1 > > Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1 > > How can they wind that inductor?soft wire and constraint it from bending any other way than you want it to https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 15:17:47 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:>On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >wrote: > >> >>https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >>Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >What is wrong with aluminium cables ? The electric conductivity is >only slightly worse than in copper, just make the cables somewhat >thicker (and also save some mass). > >Get rid of the bulky 51/60 Hz AC distribution (which needs bulky >transformers) and replace it with HVDC/MVDC/LVDC distribution with >small high frequency transformers. > >For LVDC distribution, standardize some voltages, such as: > >- 1500 Vdc: fits into the EU LV directive and a lot of LVD certified >electric components can be used > >- 400 Vdc: Common in EV and in fast chargers. Also 380 Vdc (+/-190 >Vdc) is a common voltage in data centers and also increasingly in >telecom centers > >- 48 Vdc, common telecom voltage. Also PoEWe use 48v as the prime DC power in some of our products, starting with a kilowatt of MeanWell boxed power supply or a Phihong wart. https://www.dropbox.com/s/gr57bhafemypi63/P940_box_9.jpg?raw=1 The first step is to get it down to something friendlier for the small stuff, like 12 or 24 volts, and then sub-regulate. LM2576HV-ADJ is klunky but reliable. SRH05S12 is a cool little part. I have some test data.> >>Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >Are these used for anything else than electric clocks driven by AC >mains ?Are there electrostatic motor clocks? Cool. One could maybe make a million RPM electrostatic motor just for fun.> > >>As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. > >In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate >from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by >solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC >conversion losses. >Yeah, 48 is great.
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh87nnaaa2vk1sgejoa@4ax.com>, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com says...> > That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on > asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? > > Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds. > > >There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:> In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>, > jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says... > > > > That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on > > asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? > > > > Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds. > > > > > > > There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a > strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go > through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.and convinced people that "used" diamonds are not good enough, you have to get a new one
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On 2022/07/16 7:03 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> > wrote: > >> >> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>> >>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>> >> >> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to >> adapt. >> >> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. >> >> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. > > That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on > asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?I doubt people would mine the moon/asteroids for gold, they might for copper if it got too expensive on Earth. You'd need Heinlein's shipping method to make it worth while - and copper can be pushed in a magnetic accelerator... John :-#)#
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 7:15:34 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> > wrote:> > ... Copper's ductility, however, > >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > > > >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."> These are cool: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1 > > Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1 > > How can they wind that inductor?Wire drawing takes multiple passes, with annealing and capstans between the dies, to eventually neck down a rod to wire. A big hydraulic press can instantly stamp sheet into complex shapes, as evidenced by each old solid-copper one cent coin. The windings look like stampings.
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 20.21.50 UTC+2 skrev whit3rd:> On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 7:15:34 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > ... Copper's ductility, however, > > >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > > > > > >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." > > > These are cool: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1 > > > > Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air. > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1 > > > > How can they wind that inductor? > Wire drawing takes multiple passes, with annealing and capstans between the dies, to eventually > neck down a rod to wire. A big hydraulic press can instantly stamp sheet into complex shapes, > as evidenced by each old solid-copper one cent coin. The windings look like stampings.https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>l�rdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 16.15.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> > >> >If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >> >generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >> >compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >> >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >> > >> >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >> These are cool: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1 >> >> Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1 >> >> How can they wind that inductor? > >soft wire and constraint it from bending any other way than you want it to > >https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420That is a cool video ! We use flat wire just about like that. I had wondered how they did that. Not that hard to do evidently. I love the way they make woven/braided wire (Litz) and woven rope. boB
