On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 4:57:41 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:> whit3rd wrote: > > On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >> > >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > > > > If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and > > generators are small, with low copper content, > Powered by clean fusion power, no doubt. ;)https://hb11.energy/investors/ I met Heinrich Hora when he gave a talk on the project. Hydrogen - boron fusion doesn't produce neutrons, so it is cleaner than hydrogen or deuterium fusion, through it does need higher temperatures (which do seem to be attainable). I haven't put in any money yet, but I'm thinking about it. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
copper crisis?
Started by ●July 15, 2022
Reply by ●July 15, 20222022-07-15
Reply by ●July 15, 20222022-07-15
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 6:12:02 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 12:32:51 -0400, Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote: > > >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> > >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >> > >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >> > >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting > >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power > >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long > >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. > >> > > > >You could probably put DC-DC converters on, and run the collecting feeds > > sort of like 70V audio line, only backwards and at HV DC. There would > >be some safety issues, for sure. > > The USA is blessed. We have coal, copper, lead, tin, uranium, > molybdenum, lithium, nickel, phosphates, silver, rare earth elements, > bauxite, gold, iron, mercury, zinc, potash, tungsten, salt, oil, > natural gas, water, sand, trees, grass, and girls.Unfortunately it is cursed with a lot of people who incorrectly think they know what they are talking about. Donald Trump comes to mind, and Jake Isks, amongst others. The US isn't unique in this respect, but they do seem to pay more attention to their idiots than they really should. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●July 15, 20222022-07-15
On 2022-07-15, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:> On 7/15/2022 11:09 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >> > > It's unfortunate that adding copper to aluminum (most abundant metal) or > aluminum to copper basically makes either one way worse than if you'd > left it pure. > > Like you'd think by adding say 10% aluminum to copper you'd get a wire > that was some small percentage less conductive than copper but still > retained most of copper's other nice properties, but IIRC it basically > ruins it and above some pretty low percentage aluminum you can't pull a > copper/aluminum alloy into a wire, anyway.So don't mix, CCA works quite well for many tasks. -- Jasen.
Reply by ●July 15, 20222022-07-15
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 12:00:57 PM UTC+10, Jasen Betts wrote:> On 2022-07-15, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > On 7/15/2022 11:09 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> > >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >> > >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >> > >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting > >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power > >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long > >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. > >> > > It's unfortunate that adding copper to aluminum (most abundant metal) or > > aluminum to copper basically makes either one way worse than if you'd > > left it pure. > > > > Like you'd think by adding say 10% aluminum to copper you'd get a wire > > that was some small percentage less conductive than copper but still > > retained most of copper's other nice properties, but IIRC it basically > > ruins it and above some pretty low percentage aluminum you can't pull a > > copper/aluminum alloy into a wire, anyway. > > So don't mix, CCA works quite well for many tasks.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper-clad_aluminium_wire Room-temperature super-conductors have got to be the long term solution, but nobody has yet set up a long-distance power cable with even a high-temperature super-conductor. The initial hype about fullerene nanotubes hasn't lead to any commercial products yet. Maybe it will eventually. John Larkin will ignore it as marketing hype right up to the point where he can buy reels of the stuff from DigiKey. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:49:40 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:> On 7/15/2022 11:09 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > > > > Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > > could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > > Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > > > > As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting > > resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power > > gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long > > runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. > > > It's unfortunate that adding copper to aluminum (most abundant metal) or > aluminum to copper basically makes either one way worse than if you'd > left it pure. > > Like you'd think by adding say 10% aluminum to copper you'd get a wire > that was some small percentage less conductive than copper but still > retained most of copper's other nice properties, but IIRC it basically > ruins it and above some pretty low percentage aluminum you can't pull a > copper/aluminum alloy into a wire, anyway.You mean like adding an impurity to a substance lowers the melting point no matter the melting point of the impurity? Yeah, it's like that. That's why they can use the melting point as a quick measure of purity. -- Rick C. - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On 7/15/2022 11:29 PM, Ricky wrote:> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:49:40 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >> On 7/15/2022 11:09 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>> >>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>> >> It's unfortunate that adding copper to aluminum (most abundant metal) or >> aluminum to copper basically makes either one way worse than if you'd >> left it pure. >> >> Like you'd think by adding say 10% aluminum to copper you'd get a wire >> that was some small percentage less conductive than copper but still >> retained most of copper's other nice properties, but IIRC it basically >> ruins it and above some pretty low percentage aluminum you can't pull a >> copper/aluminum alloy into a wire, anyway. > > You mean like adding an impurity to a substance lowers the melting point no matter the melting point of the impurity? Yeah, it's like that. That's why they can use the melting point as a quick measure of purity. >A paper on the conductivity of copper aluminum alloys, from the good ol' days (1937): <https://digitalcommons.mtech.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=bach_theses> It sez when alloying aluminum with copper at just 7.7% aluminum the conductivity is down to 16% of pure copper
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> >https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.What is wrong with aluminium cables ? The electric conductivity is only slightly worse than in copper, just make the cables somewhat thicker (and also save some mass). Get rid of the bulky 51/60 Hz AC distribution (which needs bulky transformers) and replace it with HVDC/MVDC/LVDC distribution with small high frequency transformers. For LVDC distribution, standardize some voltages, such as: - 1500 Vdc: fits into the EU LV directive and a lot of LVD certified electric components can be used - 400 Vdc: Common in EV and in fast chargers. Also 380 Vdc (+/-190 Vdc) is a common voltage in data centers and also increasingly in telecom centers - 48 Vdc, common telecom voltage. Also PoE>Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.Are these used for anything else than electric clocks driven by AC mains ?>As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC conversion losses.
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 10:17:56 PM UTC+10, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> >As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting > >resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power > >gathering too.If you go to the trouble of setting up a grid system. Stick a battery bank next to you solar cells and/or windmill and you need a much smaller grid,and less wire.> >The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long > >runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.Long runs tend to be cheaper if you convert to higher voltage and lower current for the long run, and convert back down again at the point of use. The utility companies having been doing this for a century or so now.> In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate > from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by > solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC > conversion losses.The main point is that telephone systems used to be set up around a stack of four 12V lead-acid cells, so 48V is a kind of industry standard. Lead acid cells aren't as good as lithium ion cells, but if you can sell good old-fashioned lead acid batteries why spend time and energy on offering a better system? Individual solar cells produce a roughly hyperbolic current versus voltage curve. You get maximum power by operating at about 0.46V. You can stack 36 of them to get an array that will charge a 12V lead acid battery. Running a smaller number into an inverter and using mark-to-space modulation to tweak the voltage step-up can let you get close to optimal performance, but that takes design work. People tend to avoid doing that, if they can get away without it. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:>On 7/15/2022 11:09 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >> > >It's unfortunate that adding copper to aluminum (most abundant metal) or >aluminum to copper basically makes either one way worse than if you'd >left it pure. > >Like you'd think by adding say 10% aluminum to copper you'd get a wire >that was some small percentage less conductive than copper but still >retained most of copper's other nice properties, but IIRC it basically >ruins it and above some pretty low percentage aluminum you can't pull a >copper/aluminum alloy into a wire, anyway.You can get solid plated copper wire from Amazon or ebay. It's intended for jewelry makers, is very hard, and a terrible electrical and thermal conductor. Real copper bus wire is soft and much more expensive.
Reply by ●July 16, 20222022-07-16
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 19:33:11 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:>On 7/15/2022 4:11 PM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 12:32:51 -0400, Phil Hobbs >> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: >> >>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>> >>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>>> >>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>>> >>> >>> You could probably put DC-DC converters on, and run the collecting feeds >>> sort of like 70V audio line, only backwards and at HV DC. There would >>> be some safety issues, for sure. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Phil Hobbs >> >> The USA is blessed. We have coal, copper, lead, tin, uranium, >> molybdenum, lithium, nickel, phosphates, silver, rare earth elements, >> bauxite, gold, iron, mercury, zinc, potash, tungsten, salt, oil, >> natural gas, water, sand, trees, grass, and girls. >> > >Well, you couldn't make them any less beautiful: > ><https://www.wboy.com/news/west-virginia/legislation-passed-to-turn-former-coalfields-into-solar-farms/> > >Bingham Canyon Mine: > ><https://youtu.be/Qgd2ggcL7EQ> > >A relative of mine used to work there, in his opinion it all kind of >went to shit once Rio Tinto bought it out and their management came in; >lots of perks for the execs while the little guy got extra shifts and >pay cuts, the usual. Doing truck maintenance for UPS was a much better gig >When a better gig is available, take it. We outlawed slavery in 1865. I've wondered why various minerals are concentrated in smallish clumps here and there. Copper here, uranium there, gold somewhere else. We're very lucky that it's not all uniformly distributed, PPMs or PPBs of important stuff uniformly in the rocks everywhere. Nice planet.
