jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> > wrote: > >> >> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>> >>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>> >> >> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to >> adapt. >> >> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. >> >> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. > > That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on > asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air. "This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed." Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
copper crisis?
Started by ●July 15, 2022
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>> >>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>>> >>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>>> >>> >>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to >>> adapt. >>> >>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. >>> >>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. >> >> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on >> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? > >One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in >the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads >down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it >would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the >re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air. > >"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be >unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed." > >Cheers > >Phil HobbsI was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold nuggets and metallic iron? If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids?
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <0903dhhpmdat4e3fng4cjgplmq5a8gpql9@4ax.com>:> >https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.Sup[p]er conductors come to mind, but cooling is hard Gold price in USD is dropping, gold is s good conductor. Horses... :-) Horses are green but full of shit. Remember that physics question if a car driven by a propellor in the wind can go faster than the wind?
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in <f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd ><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in ><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>: > >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >> > >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper. My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to wind my own.
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 18:36:20 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd > ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in > ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >>> > >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >> > >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and > >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise > >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, > >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > >> > >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." > >> > > > >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make > >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. > Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? > Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper. > > My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically > operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to > wind my own.
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 10:36:20 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: ...> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make > >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. > Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? > Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.... Please see section 1.6 in the Art of Electronics - The x-Chapters for how to minimize skin effects in large power cables where the skin effect is significant even at 50/60Hz. Litz cable has traditionally been used up to ~1-2Mhz to reduce skin-effect. Above that frequency the inter-conductor capacitance reduces the advantage. https://patents.google.com/patent/US1904162A/en Modern aircraft are changing to using DC power transmission at 270V or bipolar +/-270V and use high-frequency converters to change to the needed voltage close to the load. kw
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>>> >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>>>> >>>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to >>>> adapt. >>>> >>>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. >>>> >>>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. >>> >>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on >>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? >> >> One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in >> the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads >> down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it >> would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the >> re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air. >> >> "This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be >> unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed." >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs > > I was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig > up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local > processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold > nuggets and metallic iron? > > If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids? >Mostly hydrothermal AFAIK. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd ><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in ><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>: > >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >> > >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is cheaper than gold too. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd > ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in > ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >>> > >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >> > >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and > >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise > >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, > >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > >> > >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." > >> > > > >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make > >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. > A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is > cheaper than gold too. > > Joe GwinnAt microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper. The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length of the surface. John
