John Walliker wrote:> On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje >> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd >>> <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in >>> <f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>: >>> >>>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>>> >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>>> >>>> If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >>>> generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >>>> compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >>>> and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >>>> >>>> "Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >>>> >>> >>> I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >>> some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. >> A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is >> cheaper than gold too. >> >> Joe Gwinn > > At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper. > The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length > of the surface. > > John >The first RF thing I ever made for hire (1981) was a 12-GHz microwave absorption cavity for a phase-noise measurement setup. I still have it on my windowsill at the lab. It was machined from solid OFHC copper, and then electroless-copper plated to improve its surface conductivity. The inside of the cavity is still very shiny-looking, 40 years later. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
copper crisis?
Started by ●July 15, 2022
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
Reply by ●July 17, 20222022-07-17
On Saturday, 16 July 2022 at 15:02:01 UTC+2, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 10:17:56 PM UTC+10, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > >As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting > > >resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power > > >gathering too. > If you go to the trouble of setting up a grid system. Stick a battery bank next to you solar cells and/or windmill and you need a much smaller grid,and less wire. > > >The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long > > >runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. > Long runs tend to be cheaper if you convert to higher voltage and lower current for the long run, and convert back down again at the point of use. The utility companies having been doing this for a century or so now. > > In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate > > from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by > > solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC > > conversion losses. > The main point is that telephone systems used to be set up around a stack of four 12V lead-acid cells, so 48V is a kind of industry standard. Lead acid cells aren't as good as lithium ion cells, but if you can sell good old-fashioned lead acid batteries why spend time and energy on offering a better system? > > Individual solar cells produce a roughly hyperbolic current versus voltage curve. You get maximum power by operating at about 0.46V. > > You can stack 36 of them to get an array that will charge a 12V lead acid battery. Running a smaller number into an inverter and using mark-to-space modulation to tweak the voltage step-up can let you get close to optimal performance, but that takes design work. > > People tend to avoid doing that, if they can get away without it. > > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney--individual solar cells produce a roughly hyperbolic current versus voltage curve. You get maximum power by operating at about 0.46V. Solar cell - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell Individual solar cell devices are often the electrical building blocks of photovoltaic modules, known colloquially as solar panels. The common single junction silicon solar cell can produce a maximum open-circuit voltage of approximately 0.5 volts to 0.6 volts. so for 60-cell solar panel I get 30V nominal output
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 13:28:03 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:>On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje >> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd >> ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in >> ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>: >> > >> >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >>> >> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >> >> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >> >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >> >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >> >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >> >> >> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >> >> >> > >> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >> >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. >> A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is >> cheaper than gold too. >> >> Joe Gwinn > >At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper. >The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length >of the surface. > >JohnInteresting ! And makes sense with waveguide being so smooth and all.
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>:>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje ><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd >><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in >><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>: >> >>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>> >>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>> >>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >>> >>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >>> >> >>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff. Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure), but smooth surface is better (no reflections) tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans.. google 'cantenna'. For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? >Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper. > >My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically >operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to >wind my own.What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened >jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in ><pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>: > >>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje >><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd >>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in >>><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>: >>> >>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>>>> >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>>> >>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and >>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise >>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, >>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. >>>> >>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." >>>> >>> >>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make >>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. > >Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff. >Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure), >but smooth surface is better (no reflections) >tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans.. >google 'cantenna'. > >For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire. > > >>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? >>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper. >> >>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically >>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to >>wind my own. > >What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some alternators get into the mid audio range. I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each. The Pockels Cell driver was SiC.
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On 7/15/2022 1:30 PM, John Robertson wrote:> > On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >> >> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >> >> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >> > > Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to > adapt. > > Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. > > Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. > > Like we've been doing since our distant ancestors left the trees! > > John :-#)#We've been mining the asteroids? When? Which one?
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On 16/07/2022 16:29, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery: >> In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>, >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says... >>> >>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on >>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? >>> >>> Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds. >>> >>> >>> >> There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a >> strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go >> through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up. > > and convinced people that "used" diamonds are not good enough, > you have to get a new oneThey are running scared of the synthetic diamond producers now: https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-created-diamonds/ Not that long ago the only colour of synthetic diamond was yellow since they couldn't prevent nitrogen impurities getting in but today you can have most any colour you like including water clear. Technology for making them is not unlike some semiconductor processes but with rather more aggressive conditions! -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
On 07/18/2022 09:58 AM, John S wrote:> On 7/15/2022 1:30 PM, John Robertson wrote: >> >> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 >>> >>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. >>> >>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting >>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power >>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long >>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle. >>> >> >> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have >> to adapt. >> >> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking. >> >> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids. >> >> Like we've been doing since our distant ancestors left the trees! >> >> John :-#)# > > We've been mining the asteroids? When? Which one?https://www.cnet.com/pictures/swords-from-the-stars-weapons-forged-from-meteoric-iron/6/ Sort of...
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 18.11.19 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:> On 16/07/2022 16:29, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery: > >> In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>, > >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says... > >>> > >>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on > >>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting? > >>> > >>> Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a > >> strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go > >> through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up. > > > > and convinced people that "used" diamonds are not good enough, > > you have to get a new one > They are running scared of the synthetic diamond producers now: >and tried their best to convinced everyone that the synthetic diamond isn't quite as good as the real thing (I guess not enough blood on them) And that manufacturers of synthetic diamonds should lasermark them so you can tell it is synthetic
Reply by ●July 18, 20222022-07-18
mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 16.08.01 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened > >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in > ><pth8dh1osgj6lsgki...@4ax.com>: > > > >>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje > >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > >>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd > >>><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in > >>><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>: > >>> > >>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385 > >>>>> > >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they > >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow. > >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor. > >>>> > >>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and > >>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise > >>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however, > >>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets. > >>>> > >>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..." > >>>> > >>> > >>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make > >>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution. > > > >Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff. > >Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure), > >but smooth surface is better (no reflections) > >tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans.. > >google 'cantenna'. > > > >For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire. > > > > > >>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters? > >>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper. > >> > >>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically > >>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to > >>wind my own. > > > >What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load? > My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment > testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some > alternators get into the mid audio range. > > I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.how happy are they in linear mode? the datasheet SOA doesn't show DC
