Bit rot in micro controllers?

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 23:27:52 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next 
>>appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned 
>>off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated 
>>via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those 
>>willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it 
>>off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when 
>>warm after running the stove overnight.
>>
>>The micro controller is a Winbond W78E52BF-24 running on a 12MHz 
>>crystal. It is based on what they call electrically erasable MTP-ROM 
>>with which I assume they mean EEPROM. Date code is 2001 and that is also 
>>when we had that pellet stove installed.
>>
>>Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after 
>>only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast?
>
>1. Yes it's possible. High temperatures will speed it up (that's how
>they test retention). 
>
>2. Remedy? Get a spare board, design one (not worth it financially) or
>replace the appliance. The memory will be locked to prevent it from
>being read (easily). 
>
>3. Make *sure* you're not seeing a side effect of a failing power
>supply. Power supply ripple from failing (high ESR) e-caps would be my
>very first suspicion in a device that old that operates at elevated
>temperatures.  

Design a new controller with relays.



-- 

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. People in 
> the nearby suburb were without power for a week.
> 
> This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.
> 
> Such things don't happen often, but when they do, being needlessly without the 
> ability to cook things is really annoying.

A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
that easily.

Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.

Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber's torch)
and a single-burner, portable "camp stove".

Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
stovetop burner, on HIGH).

[dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]

As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.
However, the infrastructure is approaching its design life
and many of the buried coaxial cables are failing.

As pad-mounted transformers are daisy-chained with these,
an outage only affects the homes downstream from the
fault.  And, as each "branch" can be fed from either
"end", the remedy simply involves isolating the
failed cable segment and connecting the "spare" cable
to the other feed end (to power those isolated homes
until a new cable segment can be installed).

By far, the more concerning "outage" is loss of natural
gas supply.  This happened a few years ago (demand far
exceeded the ability of the pipeline to deliver) and
much of the city was deliberately cut off from the
supply so the rest of the city had sufficient pressure
and flow to satisfy the needs of gas appliances (mainly,
gas-fired heating).  It was annoying to see the furnace
ignite... then shut itself down, moments later, as it
wasn't generating enough heat to convince the sensors
that gas was actually flowing!  (Lather, rinse, repeat)

Most folks can't easily heat a home in the absence of
that source (but the need for heat, here, is only token).

Loss of domestic/potable water would probably be a panic
issue!  (but, we have wells all over town so it would
need to be a city-wide power outage to disable ALL
pumping stations)

On 12/12/2021 5:20 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> I replaced the thermostat on my 33yo fridge a couple of months ago.
> 
> The only thing I've had to do to my 32yo dishwasher is put
> Sugru around bits of the wire plate holders where the plastic
> had cracked and the wire had begun to corrode.
> 
> Due to the rotating mechanical sequencer, I can understand
> how that one is operating - unlike my parents' one which has
> LEDs indicating "on", "active" and "end". I've never been
> able to understand what the "on" LED signifies (and nobody
> has been able to tell me!), nor how long before it finishes
> the cycle.

It's quite possible that the length of the cycle is dependant on
the amount of crud on the dishes -- and how persistently it
remains.  That's the case with our washer/dryer (we never use
the dishwasher so I can't comment on it).

As a kid, I was always replacing the mechanical "timer" mechanism
in the dryer, washer, etc.  Or, the water level indicator, etc.
Or, the "tubes" in the TV/radio.

Our washer/dryer are ~25+ years old, all "electronic", and
the only failure has been the mechanical latch that holds the
door closed (failure of which prevents the wash cycle from
starting).

I suspect SWMBO will "grow tired" of the appliances before
finding replacement parts becomes a problem -- despite
their being "electronic".  There are many after-market
vendors that address these issues and keep old kit
running long after the OEM has abandoned the market.

Be more wary of your "home electronics" -- that 60 inch
TV you're tickled with or that WiFi AP or the wireless
sound distribution system, baby-cam, etc.  Not likely
anyone is bothering to address those "after markets"
as those items (even $2K+ TVs) are considered disposable.

And, of course, your PC and laptop are hardly worth the
time/effort to support (besides, you WANTED to update
all that licensed software, right?!  :> )

Thankfully (?), power supplies are the things that fail most
often.  If it wasn't such mindless work, I'd imagine that
would be a great "opportunity" for someone enterprising...
esp as most of this kit is simply discarded, once failed.

[I've rescued 20-30 LCD monitors for my own, personal
use -- for the time/cost of replacing caps or FETs
in power supplies and inverters.  Never anything more
involved than cheap analog parts.  And, I stopped
accumulating repairable 50"+ TVs after the third -- where
the hell can you *put* the damn things??]

*Old* photos (~2017?) but representative of the *number* of
units, involved (e.g., newer discarded monitors are larger)

+ A month's worth of *discards* (that weren't "nice enough"
   for me to rescue -- anything that works, "as is", is
   distributed to folks in need, /gratis/; anything that is
   *big* -- 25+ inch -- and broken I'll rescue for myself):

<https://mega.nz/file/B6xkWLTL#9QBKNmRQ6ruwiiBB5-xzXbfAslbwyzQ3xXcpjo_Jwyg>

+ A week's worth of (PC) intake:

<https://mega.nz/file/8m4yWZzI#41hz_D4ZDp0jvO1dsEmovV00JS_R-v3-tVfTPCZozWs>

+ A few weeks of blown PC power supplies (they're not worth fixing as *working*
   PCs are so abundant!):

<https://mega.nz/file/Q7pWSJgS#Ybe8AhdGUWL-Oy6dZSAu6QcsMnYWosZ_HRSkpvsVI2E>

+ Crop from a single dwarf lemon (happened to be on that same camera roll):

<https://mega.nz/file/ly4kwBID#NYscaoPV7WZCz8n3h1EBnp0IcwAofw36uhfRf-4TSCs>

On 12/12/2021 7:20 PM, whit3rd wrote:

> Oh, no geared clockworks on stoves have ever impressed me as reliable.

Or, anywhere else!  (think: ice maker, washer, dryer, dishwasher,
irrigation controller, etc.)

> I only once had a microwave's solid state clock/timer go bad (TTL with no
> bypass capacitors; to fix,  I hand-soldered some in and thought evil things
> about 1980's Goldstar engineering).

Our microwave is at least 30 years old.  The keypad is starting to look
a bit fatigued but never a problem with the electronics.  The previous
(in-built) unit had a large power resistor inside that was toast before
we bought the house.  Replace with a unit that digitally controls power
and that problem goes away!

Folks forget that few people REPAIR their own kit.  So, why should the
manufacturer design to make it convenient for a DIYer to do so?  I
suspect most "spares" are sold to "handymen" who undertake repairs at
the *behest* of a homeowner.

And, I suspect there is a liability issue, there -- if you make spares
available to the user, do you assume some liability for his/her
potential incompetence (and resulting "loss") in making those repairs?

OTOH, if he ignores the "no user serviceable parts inside" warning,
one can argue that *he* assumed the risk.

Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next
>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned
>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are 
>>>> operated
>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to 
>>>> turn it
>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not 
>>>> when
>>>> warm after running the stove overnight.
>>>
>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible
>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.
>>>
>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and 
>> works perfectly after 11 years.&nbsp; (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)
>>
>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.&nbsp; The oven runs a separate fan to 
>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.
>>
>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through 
>> three of them in that time.

>>
> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas 
> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite 
> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning 
> beep.

Blech.  I have a water heater that uses electronics to start the pilot 
when you first turn the gas on, but also has a bimetallic safety valve.

> 
> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the 
> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for.
> 
> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to 
> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?

Why would one want a gas oven, period?  All that water vapour makes 
pastry tough.    Electric ovens, gas cooktops are the ticket.

Round here we need a generator to run the circulation pumps on the gas 
boiler (which uses the millivolt system).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next
>>>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned
>>>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated
>>>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
>>>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it
>>>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when
>>>>>> warm after running the stove overnight.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible
>>>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
>>>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
>>>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
>>>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
>>>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works
>>>> perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)
>>>>
>>>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate fan to
>>>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.
>>>>
>>>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through
>>>> three of them in that time.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
>>> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
>>> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep.
>>>
>>> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
>>> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for.
>>>
>>> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
>>> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
>> We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
>> for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
>> by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
>> is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
>> imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
>> answers -- Next!
>>
>> The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
>> the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
>> broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop
>> burners suffices.
>>
>> This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
>> Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.
> 
> last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago and lasted a few hours
> 
> 

You don't have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes.  We 
had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of 
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a 
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, so I got a 5 kW one 
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an 
external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all 
told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery 
tenders.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

tirsdag den 14. december 2021 kl. 16.25.53 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn: 
> >> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> 
> >> wrote: 
> >>> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: 
> >>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> 
> >>>>> wrote: 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next 
> >>>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned 
> >>>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated 
> >>>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those 
> >>>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it 
> >>>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when 
> >>>>>> warm after running the stove overnight. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible 
> >>>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital 
> >>>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type 
> >>>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has 
> >>>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical 
> >>>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works 
> >>>> perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to 
> >>>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through 
> >>>> three of them in that time. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Cheers 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Phil Hobbs 
> >>>> 
> >>> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas 
> >>> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite 
> >>> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep. 
> >>> 
> >>> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the 
> >>> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for. 
> >>> 
> >>> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to 
> >>> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage? 
> >> We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking 
> >> for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer 
> >> by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question 
> >> is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might 
> >> imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong 
> >> answers -- Next! 
> >> 
> >> The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but 
> >> the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and 
> >> broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop 
> >> burners suffices. 
> >> 
> >> This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar 
> >> Thermador, and it is useless without mains power. 
> > 
> > last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago and lasted a few hours 
> > 
> >
> You don't have actual weather, though. We get Atlantic hurricanes. We 
> had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days. 

put the cables under ground ;)
> 
> I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of 
> affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a 
> number like 10 days. 
> 
> There were no generators to be had locally by then, so I got a 5 kW one 
> from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an 
> external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all 
> told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery 
> tenders.)
> Cheers 

get  hybrid car, some of them have a pretty beefy inverter that runs off the main ~400V battery ;)

 

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 12:46:52 AM UTC-4, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:56:32 -0800 (PST), Rick C 
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > 
> >The problem was not the people. The problem was no longer having infrastru= 
> >cture. Makes it hard to get anything done. Add in a total lack of support= 
> > from the Federal Government and it results in a slow recovery.=20 
> 
> Jones Act doesn't help either, from what I've heard. 
> 
> https://i2.wp.com/www.grassrootinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5-18-jones-act-cartoon.png?w=1626&ssl=1

People in Puerto Rico cite the Jones act of causing all sorts of mayhem.  I think it is over rated.  I've yet to hear from anyone who could cite even one example of significant impact of the Jones act.  In this case, it would seem to be possibly misunderstood.  

"The Jones Act requires goods shipped between U.S. ports to be transported on ships that are built, owned, and operated by United States citizens or permanent residents" 

So while the cartoon may be accurately showing a foreign *ship* not being allowed to bring supplies from another US port, it would not prevent the import of supplies from a foreign port on any vessel. 

The people in Puerto Rico do seem to have a certain level of resignation to many political impacts on their lives.  They don't have a two party system in Puerto Rico, but people complain that none of the parties are actually any more effective than the others!  

Do we have an equivalent law to protect US airlines or US ground shipping?  How about US bicycle couriers and pizza delivery? 

-- 

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

tirsdag den 14. december 2021 kl. 17.27.20 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
> On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 12:46:52 AM UTC-4, Spehro Pefhany wrote: 
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:56:32 -0800 (PST), Rick C 
> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >The problem was not the people. The problem was no longer having infrastru= 
> > >cture. Makes it hard to get anything done. Add in a total lack of support= 
> > > from the Federal Government and it results in a slow recovery.=20 
> > 
> > Jones Act doesn't help either, from what I've heard. 
> > 
> > https://i2.wp.com/www.grassrootinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5-18-jones-act-cartoon.png?w=1626&ssl=1
> People in Puerto Rico cite the Jones act of causing all sorts of mayhem. I think it is over rated. I've yet to hear from anyone who could cite even one example of significant impact of the Jones act. In this case, it would seem to be possibly misunderstood. 
> 
> "The Jones Act requires goods shipped between U.S. ports to be transported on ships that are built, owned, and operated by United States citizens or permanent residents" 
> 
> So while the cartoon may be accurately showing a foreign *ship* not being allowed to bring supplies from another US port, it would not prevent the import of supplies from a foreign port on any vessel. 
> 
> The people in Puerto Rico do seem to have a certain level of resignation to many political impacts on their lives. They don't have a two party system in Puerto Rico, but people complain that none of the parties are actually any more effective than the others! 
> 
> Do we have an equivalent law to protect US airlines or US ground shipping? How about US bicycle couriers and pizza delivery? 
> 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

On 12/13/21 9:25 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 23:27:52 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
> <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next
>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned
>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated
>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it
>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when
>>> warm after running the stove overnight.
>>>
>>> The micro controller is a Winbond W78E52BF-24 running on a 12MHz
>>> crystal. It is based on what they call electrically erasable MTP-ROM
>>> with which I assume they mean EEPROM. Date code is 2001 and that is also
>>> when we had that pellet stove installed.
>>>
>>> Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after
>>> only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast?
>>
>> 1. Yes it's possible. High temperatures will speed it up (that's how
>> they test retention).


That doesn't sound encouraging :-(

>>
>> 2. Remedy? Get a spare board, design one (not worth it financially) or
>> replace the appliance. The memory will be locked to prevent it from
>> being read (easily).


Either I'll try to find a new controller or turn all that stuff towards 
analog. The new controllers are unfortunately for 1rpm augers while the 
older stoves have 4rpm augers. So I'd have to follow the auger motor 
control output with some sort of nifty "adaptable pulse length corrector".

>>
>> 3. Make *sure* you're not seeing a side effect of a failing power
>> supply. Power supply ripple from failing (high ESR) e-caps would be my
>> very first suspicion in a device that old that operates at elevated
>> temperatures.
> 
> Design a new controller with relays.
> 

Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used 
to be on pellet stoves.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/