Bit rot in micro controllers?

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used 
> >to be on pellet stoves.
> Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a 
> Raspberry Pi: 
> 
> https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/ 
> 
> ;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets 
> to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile 
> devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown 
> of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<9c43cd33-acee-4e51-9b3b-a76624f3cc93n@googlegroups.com>:

>torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> 
>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> >Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used 
>> >to be on pellet stoves.
>> Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a 
>> Raspberry Pi: 
>> 
>> https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/ 
>> 
>> ;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets 
>> to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile 
>> devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown 
>> of the Debian file system.
>
>afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss
>
>a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
 http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

On 12/15/21 6:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 6:59:59 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

[...]

>>> ... so I got a 5 kW one
>>> from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an
>>> external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all
>>> told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery
>>> tenders.)
>>>
>> That monster must consume gasoline to no end. I bought a 1700W/2000W
>> inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer
>> and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few
>> little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM
>> according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run
>> aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.
>>
>> I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
>> years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
>> carburetor doesn't gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start
>> if needed.
>> -- 
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used. 


Because it is the least expensive :-)


> ...  Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I've cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish.  Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs.
> Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.  Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.  If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch.
> Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances.  Beats 12 times a year.
> 

Propane has become very expensive where we live. Plus then you either 
need to buy/keep/store bottles unless you have a specialist plumb in a 
tap and pipe (more $$$). Then try to find a dual fuel carburetor that 
fits your particular generator. AFAIR ours uses a 80ccm Yamaha-style engine.

Anyhow, I don't mind starting it once every 1-2 months. Just have to be 
careful schlepping it, on account of my bad lower back. I like to test 
important things regularly so I can be fairly sure they will work when 
needed. Smoke detectors, generator, CO detectors, brake lights on cars, 
sprinkler systems, et cetera. It's just a checklist routine.

Having a hybrid like you do would be cool. However, given that I drive 
less than 2000mi/year (the remainder is spent on one of my bicycles) it 
would not make financial sense at all to spend lots of money on a hybrid.

Some day I might get a LiFePO4 battery so it can run stuff a bit longer 
than a UPS can. Or plumb one of those into a UPS.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: 
> >> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America 
> >> looks so kludged and temporary" :-) 
> > 
> > That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who's grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions. 
> >
> Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?

Have you driven a Lexus?  That is a nice car.  So is my Tesla.  I don't want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash.  


> > Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.
> Same here. There's hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly. 
> Same in Europe.

So clearly no basis for trash talk from you. 

-- 

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

>> Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
>> specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I've
>> cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
>> contaminates and varnish.
> 
> The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don't store
> fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
> as needed.
> 

With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way 
it's always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.


>>  Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you
>> need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a 
>> lot of
>> generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad 
>> gasoline
>> and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
>> carbs.
> 
> Carburetors aren't hard to clean/rebuild.  But, you'd not want to
> be doing it when you *needed* the genset.  Sort of like having to drive
> to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...
> 
>> Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
>> deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.
> 
> Exactly.
> 
>>  Store a
>> couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.
> 
> The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
> If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
> it, as such, then it's not (a hopefully unused!) "overhead".
> 
> Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
> vehicles.  Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
> "camp stove" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
> Whether that is a small 16oz "torch canister" or a big tank,
> the fuel is the same.  The act that it can *also* power the genset
> is a win-win.
> 
> A 5G can of gas/diesel isn't going to help you prepare meals!
> 

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/

https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB

But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire 8-)

[...]

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/16/21 11:53 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America
>>>> looks so kludged and temporary" :-)
>>>
>>> That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who's grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.
>>>
>> Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?
> 
> Have you driven a Lexus?  That is a nice car.  So is my Tesla.  I don't want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash.
> 

JFTR I am an American. WRT to world war technology you might want to 
brush up on "Operation Paperclip". There was a reason for that program.

> 
>>> Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.
>> Same here. There's hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly.
>> Same in Europe.
> 
> So clearly no basis for trash talk from you.
> 

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of 
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I've only 
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or 
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a 
little wind. Pathetic.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/16/21 11:53 AM, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: 
> >> On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote: 
> >>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: 
> >>>> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America 
> >>>> looks so kludged and temporary" :-) 
> >>> 
> >>> That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who's grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions. 
> >>> 
> >> Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life? 
> > 
> > Have you driven a Lexus? That is a nice car. So is my Tesla. I don't want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash. 
> >
> JFTR I am an American. WRT to world war technology you might want to 
> brush up on "Operation Paperclip". There was a reason for that program.
> > 
> >>> Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you. 
> >> Same here. There's hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly. 
> >> Same in Europe. 
> > 
> > So clearly no basis for trash talk from you. 
> >
> Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of 
> the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I've only 
> heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or 
> Romania. 
> 
> Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a 
> little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it's on the users who don't make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities.  Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they've put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort.  What's your excuse? 

-- 

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

>> Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of 
>> the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I've only 
>> heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or 
>> Romania. 
>>
>> Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a 
>> little wind. Pathetic.
> 
> When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it's on the users who don't make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities.  Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they've put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort.  What's your excuse? 
> 

You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies?  You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season?  That
would be a nice world, but it's a bit unrealistic.

(I don't have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can't see
"pushing your politicians" as being a serious way to reduce power outages.)

On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> 
>>> Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
>>> the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I've only
>>> heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
>>> Romania.
>>>
>>> Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
>>> little wind. Pathetic.
>>
>> When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it's on the users who don't make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities.  Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they've put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort.  What's your excuse?
>>
> 
> You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
> companies?  You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
> significant influence on politicians outside of election season?  That
> would be a nice world, but it's a bit unrealistic.
> 

People do but many voters are not very smart. The cause here in CA is 
rather clear. A lot of extreme "green" requirements were foisted on 
utilities by incompetent or corrupt politicians. The result was neglect 
of the grid, high prices and frequent power shortages because they had 
to close fossil-fuel or nuclear plants.


> (I don't have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can't see
> "pushing your politicians" as being a serious way to reduce power outages.)
> 

Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren't smart enough for that. 
As had been very obvious when they didn't recall our governor who 
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with 
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in 
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have 
walked him out of office.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/16/2021 1:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
>>> specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I've
>>> cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
>>> contaminates and varnish.
>>
>> The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don't store
>> fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
>> as needed.
> 
> With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way it's 
> always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.

If you have to worry about outages that often, you've a bigger problem
to address!

The lights often "blink off" for a second or two, here (likely switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

>>>  Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you
>>> need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of
>>> generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline
>>> and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
>>> carbs.
>>
>> Carburetors aren't hard to clean/rebuild.  But, you'd not want to
>> be doing it when you *needed* the genset.  Sort of like having to drive
>> to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...
>>
>>> Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
>>> deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>>>  Store a
>>> couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.
>>
>> The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
>> If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
>> it, as such, then it's not (a hopefully unused!) "overhead".
>>
>> Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
>> vehicles.  Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
>> "camp stove" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
>> Whether that is a small 16oz "torch canister" or a big tank,
>> the fuel is the same.  The act that it can *also* power the genset
>> is a win-win.
>>
>> A 5G can of gas/diesel isn't going to help you prepare meals!
> 
> Sure it can.
> 
> https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/
> 
> https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/
> 
> For a smaller appetite:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB 

So, now you have to acquire and maintain another device just for
that contingency.

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand and
to maintain as "end of life" is much closer than "rest of life"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

> But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire 8-)

I guess if you have lots of time to waste building a fire to
prepare a meal...

I have far more interesting ways to spend my time than stoking
a wood fire just to make a meal that I can consume in 10 minutes.
[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
"eating" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid.  No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

[I'm also extremely confident in my masculinity without having to
"prove" it to myself or others.  But, hey, I've got a straight razor
you can use to shave if you'd prefer that...]