On 12/25/2021 12:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/23/21 8:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>>> [UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you
>>>>>>> want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost
>>>>>>> almost as much to replace as a new UPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's likely true for the small/cheap "modified sine wave"
>>>>>> inverters. Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
>>>>>> power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
>>>>>> portion of the total cost. Thus, giving value to "surplus"
>>>>>> units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
>>>>> generator, where true-sine was included.
>>>>
>>>> Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
>>>> You're paying for weight, not "technology".
>>>
>>> They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I bought this
>>> for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:
>>>
>>> https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966
>>
>> I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes (below) for
>> a total of $7 at an auction. $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
>> WANTED them!)
>>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G>
>>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC>
>>
>> They were still in their original shipping boxes. All of the batteries
>> still showing charge. Someone simply decided they "didn't want them"
>> after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.
>>
>> This is fairly common at large companies where it's not the decision makers'
>> money that's involved.
>>
>> I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
>> workstations -- tall and slender. Most of mine are smaller (less VA):
>>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M>
>
> I was never lucky to find any UPS like that. On Ebay they quickly get bid up to
> levels that are beyond what their remaining value is. So I just bought a new
> one, for less that those EBay bids, and no faffing around with batteries and
> stuff.
eBay is the wrong place to look for HEAVY things like UPSs.
Even if "free", the shipping charges would kill you.
Every "modest" size town/city has an abundance of businesses
that dispose of their surplus kit -- often through auctions
or other "recyclers" (who "take it off their hands").
These came from a local hospital's IT department. Others
have come from city gummit offices, school districts,
electronic device manufacturers, etc.
> Unpack, plug in, turn on, test, move on with life. That's my favorite UPS
> implementation method.
As mine. Except having to dispose of the 4 very large, oversized
boxes that they come packed in.
>> The issue with these is making sure the *feet* are available in
>> the auction lot before bidding.
>
> Feet? That would be the least of my worries. Four chunks of Delrin do the
> trick, or rubber for smaller units.
This form factor is intended to be rack mounted -- 2U. So,
could be "laid flat". That, however, eats up lots of (floor)
space -- something that is at a premium, here. I could lay
them atop my disk shelfs (4U each) but that means moving
the shelfs would require lifting the UPS off the top.
They can, alternatively, be stood on end (my preferred orientation)
where they just require a "sliver" of (tall) space. Feet keep
them from easily being toppled.
But, the feet are a sort of saddle onto which the UPS sits.
So, lift the UPS and the feet will stay behind. This is a
risk when the UPS is discarded and the feet get separated
from the UPS. One could make some out of 1/2" plywood with
blocks of 2x4 on each side -- but, that's tacky looking.
>> Most UPSs that I've rescued were three years old. Likely the batteries
>> started to fail, the IT guy got a price for replacements FROM THE UPS
>> VENDOR and the bean counters said "just toss the thing" -- rather than
>> processing the paperwork for the reorder, handling the delivery,
>> installing the replacements and disposing of the spent batteries
>> (i.e., beyond the inflated purchase price, there are high internal
>> costs to actually making the replacement)
>>
>> The economies are different for smaller firms. E.g., I'll save the
>> bad batteries until I have enough of them to justify a trip to the
>> recycler (about 20c/pound).
>
> Sure, but you have to have the connections to get first dibs.
No. Read again: NO ONE WANTED THEM. Think about it... many
people don't use a UPS. Those that do, likely have *small* units
(in terms of capacity and size).
If the batteries had been depleted/old, there is ~$20 of
recycle value in the batteries alone. So, a $7 bid nets $13
profit. But, buying them for that reason is a waste of
your time. Instead, buy with the intent of using them and
recycle the batteries when convenient.
[The battery recycler is on the drive to one of the auction sites
so I load up the car with dead batteries before the next auction]
These tend to see more use in datacenters. Folks buying for
datacenters tend to have budgets to BUY NEW -- they're not
"competing" with you for this "surplus" stuff.
Discarded servers similarly have "no market" as they are too
big/noisey for (typical) home use. And, the folks who would
otherwise be expected to want them can afford to "buy new".
My workstations are beasts -- 18" deep, 21" tall and 8" wide.
They weigh in at a bit over 60 pounds. Folks want *small*
computers -- or laptops. They have no need for 3 accessible
drive bays, 4 internal spindles, dual NICs and 1100W power
supplies!
And, their "recycled value" is lower because they are harder to
disassemble into their component parts than some cheap little
Dell SFF machine or minitower. They are, essentially, trash
(dual, 6 core Xeons at 3.2GHz with 144GB of RAM)
OTOH, an i7 laptop will command a few bucks! Because people *want*
them!
>>> Buying a surplus one on Ebay or somewhere requires a new set of batteries
>>> ($$$) plus chances are some electrolytic in there are well past prime.
>>
>> You wouldn't want to pay for shipping. And, if a UPS can't be
>> operable after 3 years, then why would you purchase ANY one?
>
> The ones on EBay auctions were a lot older than 3 years.
Look at the local firms in your area. All of my colleagues
were similarly ignorant of what was available in their back yards.
Now, they all make a point of visiting recyclers, auctions, etc.
And, it's a pleasant distraction. Like going to an old-fashioned
(not new-fangled) hardware store and looking through tools and
fasteners with an eye towards how they were intended to be used.
[I bought my second "Personal Reader" -- with page scanner -- at
another auction. No one knew what it was (and would likely not
want it even if they did!) so it was another $7 "no bid" purchase]
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zNxsYLuGqw>
page scanner, here:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Kurzweil_scanner_01.jpg/440px-Kurzweil_scanner_01.jpg>
>>>> Batteries for one cost no more than for the other. So, silly to
>>>> settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.
>>>
>>> Nothing silly about that when buying a new one. Why should one spend more
>>> money where mod-sine clearly suffices?
>>
>> You're making the assumption that it "suffices".
>
> No, I _know_ it suffices for me. As in "I tested it".
That was my point. My UPS needs just keep increasing. I have
a 1500VA unit dedicated to power the monitors in my office.
>> Each of my UPSs has a network interface so I can (programatically) monitor
>> load and log that (without writing any code) to another 24/7/365 box.
>> That feature isn't available on low-end units.
>
> And I don't need it.
You're a typical consumer. I imagine I have far more kit than you
and have it all networked (there are 48 drops *in* my office, alone)
>>>> We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
>>>> time. Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!
>>>
>>> I can do that with a car battery. But no need because the drill here is
>>> simple, power goes, start generator, and the UPS only has to tide things
>>> over for those 15mins or so. Plus reserves for when the batteries begin to age.
>>
>> We skip the *need* for the genset as we have enough UPS capacity to
>> "carry" the convenience loads. And, can likely live without the
>> bigger loads (furnace, frig, freezer, microwave, etc.) for the
>> short time that we'll be without power.
>>
>> We've had outages in the wee hours of the morning. The repair crew was
>> outside promptly, isolating the defective cable segment and rerouting
>> power from the "other end". SWMBO would wonder why her bedside clock
>> was flashing 12:00 when she awoke: "Did we have a power failure last night?"
>
> What, you did not equip her with a clock that has battery backup?
She could use the network media server -- which would give her
a backed up display *and* audio content (fall asleep to music, wake to
music/radio, etc.). But, she is "attached" to her little stereo.
I keep threatening NOT to repair it -- again -- but always seem to
get coerced into fixing the CD changer "one more time".
I've even programmed the media server to respond to the remote
from that mini stereo so it can *virtually* emulate the CD
changer. But, she's more comfortable with what she's known for
~35 years... (she has a *second* one in her art studio that I
similarly have to maintain)
>> The actual faulted cable might not be replaced for months (which leaves
>> us vulnerable to a second fault). But, that's a bean-counter exercise
>> in cost vs. expectations. (They just replaced another segment down
>> the block a few weeks ago)
>
> Here it's PG&E so the grid is iffy in general. Ours is below ground but that
> doesn't help because much of the town's isn't. Unfortunately the transfer
> station is across that part of town, so ...
The distribution transformer for this neighborhood is nearby (surrounded
by shrubbery). The infrastructure is ~40 years old (my understanding is
that it was designed to be serviced in 30). Each of the utilities
(with the notable exception of PSTN) have been lagging in their maintenance
(PSTN has been almost negligent) but we are now probably starting fresh
(all of the gas lines were recently replaced and upgraded in capacity;
the electric service incrementally replaced, water meters replaced, etc.)
Other/older parts of town are more problematic as their utilities
are overhead. So, auto accidents and other potential hazzards
(high winds, etc.) leave them at risk.
If you drive through most metropolitan/suburban areas, it's obvious
that most infrastructure is vulnerable to "extraordinary events".
Thoughout town, one will find gas and water services coming up
out of the ground for a check valve or access port, then diving
back below grade. Is it LUCK that keeps them from being struck by
errant drivers?
Our (local) well/pumping station is within 100 ft of a wash that
was catastrophically eroded in flooding 30 years back. What's to
stop the next event from taking *that* piece of land? <shrug>
<shrug> EXPECT *typical* outages. BE PREPARED for the exceptional
ones. But, acknowledge that you can't cover ALL bases!
[NORAD keeps 30 days supply of "everything" -- including fuel, potable
water, etc. -- on hand in case they have to seal up the mountain.
What if they need to stay sealed for *31* days???]