Bit rot in micro controllers?

On 12/15/2021 1:09 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/14/21 4:38 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 4:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 12/13/21 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. People 
>>>>> in the nearby suburb were without power for a week.
>>>>>
>>>>> This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such things don't happen often, but when they do, being needlessly without 
>>>>> the ability to cook things is really annoying.
>>>>
>>>> A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
>>>> 5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
>>>> that easily.
>>>
>>> Charcoal? That's only for wimps :-)
>>
>> Try burning a stump out of the ground with "a pile of wood".
> 
> Why do you need to burn out a stump for cooking?

I need to burn out *stumps* for trees that I fell.  It
would be defeatist to hire a stump grinder to sort out that
last bit of the tree I've felled!  :>

Digging them up is considerably more time consuming
and requires a shitload more effort!  The last such effort
took me several months and netted a half *ton* stump (more
than two cubic yards of wood) -- removing 7T of soil to
fully expose the root structure beneath.

[A neighbor claims my effort ended up in the local newspaper?]

>>> I cook over manzanita or almond wood, depending on the meat for that 
>>> particular meal. When the power went for the first time around here (the 
>>> famous Californian Gray-outs) my wife almost panicked because she had just 
>>> started cooking an elaborate gourmet dinner. I fired up the barbie and then 
>>> we had everything we wanted. Steaks, freshly baked bread, baked potatoes 
>>> with sour cream, whiskey peppercorn sauce, steamed vegetables, followed by 
>>> some sort of glazed dessert and, of course, espresso.
>>>
>>>> Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> No way.
>>
>> Running a genset on wood is pretty tough...
> 
> Well, this was about a gas grill and there ain't never going to be no gas grill 
> in this here yard :-)

It's about sources of energy.  Cooking being one potential use.

>>>> Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber's torch)
>>>> and a single-burner, portable "camp stove".
>>>
>>> Ok, but then I'd rather use a few rocks and a few pieces of wire to hold a 
>>> pot over the fire.
>>>
>>>> Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
>>>> stovetop burner, on HIGH).
>>>
>>> Glamping :-)
>>>
>>>> [dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]
>>>>
>>>> As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
>>>> drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.
>>>
>>> Much of California has among the highest electricity prices but a grid 
>>> reliability like Romania in the 80's.
>>
>> We (our house) have been caught downstream of two cable-segment
>> faults.  I believe there is one that hasn't yet failed between
>> us and our nominal feed direction.  Once that has failed and been
>> replaced, we should be set for another 20+ years...
> 
> PG&E said they'll shut us off early January for repairs. Hopefully that will 
> make things more reliable. Electricity felt like a huge step back after moving 
> from Europe to California. It's so unreliable here.

Our "supply" is reliable.  It's the distribution network on our
*street* that is showing signs of age.  Likely related to folks
updating services without the buried lines being "rejuvenated"
to adapt to same.

When I lived in the midwest (overhead lines), it was a monthly
event to find yourself in the dark!  Though I suspect outages are
*very* "localized", there, as here.

>> [An amusing feeling to see homes "two doors down" with power while
>> you sit in the dark.  But, the outages are never long enough to
>> warrant firing up the genset; the UPSs carry most of the important
>> loads...]
> 
> I have a UPS for the wood stove fans. That will only run them for 30-40mins 
> (with a new SLA battery). I could probably roach on a big LiFePO4 battery but 
> that would now cost north of $200 and require some hack to reduce the 
> charge-end voltage. Main thing, it's long enough right now until I've got the 
> generator set up, cables run and started.

I can run the fridge, furnace, freezer and stovetop with the
genset.  Plus most of the "electronics" when their UPSs
lose capacity.  I've a UPS in the garage that can act in
place of the genset (5KW, 5KWHr capacity) save for the
inconvenience of running wires.

But, we rarely have outages in the (two month?) heating season so the
furnace rarely is a motivating factor to start the genset.  And,
keep the fridge closed and it will maintain its contents for a while.
Ditto with the freezer.  For a meal/snack, we can live without
the cooktop for a few hours.

The ACBrrrr is the biggest motivation for supplemental power.
And, it draws considerably more than the genset can supply.
As outages are rare enough, the idea of buying a *larger*
genset is foolish.  Spend the money for a hotel room if
the power is going to be out overnight!

Someday, I'll buy a small "room-sized" unit for those
events.  But, then, what to use it for when power is
available??

>> Other (older) parts of town still have flying power/phone
>> distribution.  I suspect they suffer more outages from the
>> increased vulnerability of that distribution method.
> 
> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America looks so 
> kludged and temporary" :-)

There are advantages to overhead utilities.  But, they are eyesores.
I suppose there are risks associated with pad-mounted transformers
(drivers crashing into them?) but haven't seen that as a common
cause for "loss".

Your father would be far more amused at life south of the border
(or in many {C,S}American countries).  Folks with "summer properties"
in Baja contend with water being *delivered* to the rooftop tank.
The idea of NOT being able to luxuriate in a warm shower is
terrifying to me!  :<  "Sponge baths" make vacationing, there,
really distressing...

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 6:59:59 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> > Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >> mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn: 
> >>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> 
> >>> wrote: 
> >>>> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: 
> >>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg 
> >>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> 
> >>>>>> wrote: 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next 
> >>>>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be 
> >>>>>>> turned 
> >>>>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are 
> >>>>>>> operated 
> >>>>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those 
> >>>>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to 
> >>>>>>> turn it 
> >>>>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but 
> >>>>>>> not when 
> >>>>>>> warm after running the stove overnight. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible 
> >>>>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital 
> >>>>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type 
> >>>>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has 
> >>>>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical 
> >>>>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and 
> >>>>> works 
> >>>>> perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate fan to 
> >>>>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through 
> >>>>> three of them in that time. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Cheers 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Phil Hobbs 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas 
> >>>> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite 
> >>>> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a 
> >>>> warning beep. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the 
> >>>> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been 
> >>>> on for. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to 
> >>>> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage? 
> >>> We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking 
> >>> for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer 
> >>> by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question 
> >>> is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might 
> >>> imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong 
> >>> answers -- Next! 
> >>> 
> >>> The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but 
> >>> the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and 
> >>> broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop 
> >>> burners suffices. 
> >>> 
> >>> This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar 
> >>> Thermador, and it is useless without mains power. 
> >> 
> >> last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago 
> >> and lasted a few hours 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > You don't have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes.  We 
> > had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days. 
> > 
> > I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of 
> > affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a 
> > number like 10 days. 
> >
> > There were no generators to be had locally by then, ... 
> 
> 
> During an outage I called a store for something else and before the 
> clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed "We do 
> not have any generators in stock". 
> 
> 
> > ... so I got a 5 kW one
> > from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an 
> > external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all 
> > told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery 
> > tenders.) 
> >
> That monster must consume gasoline to no end. I bought a 1700W/2000W 
> inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer 
> and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few 
> little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM 
> according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run 
> aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline. 
> 
> I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two 
> years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the 
> carburetor doesn't gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start 
> if needed.
> -- 
> Regards, Joerg 
> 
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used.  Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I've cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish.  Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs.  
Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.  Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.  If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch.
Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances.  Beats 12 times a year.

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 10:03:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> > Joerg wrote: 
> >> On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>>> mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn: 
> >>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> 
> >>>>> wrote: 
> >>>>>> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>>>>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: 
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg 
> >>>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> 
> >>>>>>>> wrote: 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next 
> >>>>>>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to 
> >>>>>>>>> be turned 
> >>>>>>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are 
> >>>>>>>>> operated 
> >>>>>>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those 
> >>>>>>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough 
> >>>>>>>>> to turn it 
> >>>>>>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but 
> >>>>>>>>> not when 
> >>>>>>>>> warm after running the stove overnight. 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a 
> >>>>>>>> horrible 
> >>>>>>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital 
> >>>>>>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type 
> >>>>>>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has 
> >>>>>>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical 
> >>>>>>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and 
> >>>>>>> works 
> >>>>>>> perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate 
> >>>>>>> fan to 
> >>>>>>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through 
> >>>>>>> three of them in that time. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Cheers 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Phil Hobbs 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas 
> >>>>>> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite 
> >>>>>> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a 
> >>>>>> warning beep. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the 
> >>>>>> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been 
> >>>>>> on for. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to 
> >>>>>> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage? 
> >>>>> We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking 
> >>>>> for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer 
> >>>>> by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question 
> >>>>> is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might 
> >>>>> imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong 
> >>>>> answers -- Next! 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but 
> >>>>> the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and 
> >>>>> broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop 
> >>>>> burners suffices. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar 
> >>>>> Thermador, and it is useless without mains power. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years 
> >>>> ago and lasted a few hours 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> You don't have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes. 
> >>> We had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days. 
> >>> 
> >>> I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of 
> >>> affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a 
> >>> number like 10 days. 
> >>> 
> >>> There were no generators to be had locally by then, ... 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> During an outage I called a store for something else and before the 
> >> clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed "We 
> >> do not have any generators in stock". 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>>                                                ... so I got a 5 kW 
> >>> one from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch 
> >>> and an external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about 
> >>> $1500 all told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer 
> >>> and battery tenders.) 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> That monster must consume gasoline to no end. 
> > 
> > Nah, under
> half
> a gallon per hour while running the furnace, fridges, 
> > freezer, and computers.  It runs toasters and microwaves fine, but tends 
> > to trip if people forget and use the garbage disposal. ;)
> (it runs overnight on one 4-gallon tankful)
> > 
> > I bought a 1700W/2000W 
> >> inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen 
> >> fridge/freezer and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp 
> >> cooler and a few little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates 
> >> the engine RPM according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle 
> >> and can run aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline. 
> > 
> > Depends a lot on the load.  Our outages tend to be in the winter. 
> >> 
> >> I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two 
> >> years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the 
> >> carburetor doesn't gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will 
> >> start if needed. 
> > 
> > Letting it run dry is usually enough. 
> > 
> > Cheers 
> > 
> > Phil Hobbs 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
> Principal Consultant 
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 
> 
> http://electrooptical.net 
> http://hobbs-eo.com

I recently got a 2021 Toyota Highlander hybrid.  It has a 1800W pure sine wave inverter that is connected to the very large 1.9 kWh battery.
For emergency use,  I have a cable from the Highlander to the gas furnace in the house.  Will run the gas furnace with no problem.  
The neat thing about the Highlander, as well as most hybrids, is that the computer that monitors the battery when external loads are seen, it will start the engine to charge the battery, the turn it off when charged.  If the Highlander has a full tank of gas, I calculated that it could run the furnace for at least a week with outside temps around 30 degrees F, given the particulars of my house insulation and high efficiency furnace.
I really like diverse redundant solutions....
j

On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
> I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency
> situations would be used.

If you drive a vehicle that runs on diesel, it would be preferable.
Keep some 5G jerry cans on hand and cycle them through the vehicle
so you don't even worry about "stale fuel".

> Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
> specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I've
> cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
> contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don't store
fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
as needed.

>  Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you
> need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of
> generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline
> and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
> carbs.

Carburetors aren't hard to clean/rebuild.  But, you'd not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset.  Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...

> Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
> deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

>  Store a
> couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.

The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
it, as such, then it's not (a hopefully unused!) "overhead".

Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
vehicles.  Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
"camp stove" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
Whether that is a small 16oz "torch canister" or a big tank,
the fuel is the same.  The act that it can *also* power the genset
is a win-win.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn't going to help you prepare meals!

>  If you run out of
> propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch. Yes, you can do all the monthly
> startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a
> good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances.
> Beats 12 times a year.

We looked into buying a propane fired kiln (as another way to *regularly*
"consume" the propane) but SWMBO's interests changed.  Still may end up
doing that as I need to make some ceramic parts and having the kiln
on hand (instead of outsourcing) would be much more convenient.

Certainly more convenient than running a big *dedicated* electric branch
just for a kiln!

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used 
>to be on pellet stoves.

Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi: 

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-)   All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system. 
-- 
Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:53:35 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

Exactly. A foreign air carrier, say carrying passengers from Tokyo to
Honolulu and then onward to LAX is not allowed to pick up passengers
in Hawaii and deposit them in Los Angeles, thus protecting the
domestic HNL-LAX route from competition. 

A common market does have some benefits- like cabotage and like EU SIM
card/plans for visitors working all over the EU without extra charges
instead of just in the country of sale. 
-- 
Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America 
> looks so kludged and temporary" :-)

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job.  A country who's grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.  

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary.  Ask the German solar industry.  They can explain temporary to you. 

-- 

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:34:25 PM UTC-4, jjhu...@gmail.com wrote:
> I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used. Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I've cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish. Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs. 
> Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power. Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go. If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch. 
> Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances. Beats 12 times a year.

I always wonder how easy it would be to get propane in a pinch.  Gasoline will always be provided because it is needed for so many things.  Propane is used by a very few for heating and even fewer for electrical generation.  

-- 

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> When my dad from Germany was here he said "A lot of stuff in America
>> looks so kludged and temporary" :-)
> 
> That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job.  A country who's grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.
> 

Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?


> Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary.  Ask the German solar industry.  They can explain temporary to you.


Same here. There's hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly. 
Same in Europe.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/15/21 9:25 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
>> to be on pellet stoves.
> 
> Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
> Raspberry Pi:
> 
> https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/
> 
> ;-)   All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
> to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
> devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
> of the Debian file system.
> 

Yes, that is a good idea. However, for me that would mean a huge 
learning curve. Making an analog controller is easy for me.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/