On 12/12/21 7:01 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next >>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned >>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated >>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those >>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it >>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when >>> warm after running the stove overnight. >> >> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible >> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital >> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type >> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. >> >> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has >> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical >> thermostat. Guess which one still works. >> >> >> > We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works > perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) >I wouldn't want that unless it could also be started with a match. In case of a power outage and because spare parts for that are eventually bound to become unobtanium.> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to > keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. >As long as it issues a warning if that fan ever stalls. I prefer low-tech ovens such as this: https://www.luckybelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Where-to-Start-When-Building-a-DIY-Pizza-Oven.png> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through > three of them in that time. >We have a dishwasher for over 20 years now where I was skeptical at purchase time. The sales guy assured me there were no electronics inside and he was right. While it has modern-style pushbuttons that look like digital controls they are like on the old gas guzzlers with push button transmission buttons. You press one and there is an assuring kerchunk happening behind the panel. Looks very repairable in case it ever goes. That dishwasher was deeply discounted because people wanted high-falutin ones with LCD or at least VFD panels. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Bit rot in micro controllers?
Started by ●December 11, 2021
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:>On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next >>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned >>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated >>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those >>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it >>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when >>>> warm after running the stove overnight. >>> >>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible >>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital >>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type >>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. >>> >>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has >>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical >>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. >>> >>> >>> >> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works >> perfectly after 11 years.� (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) >> >> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.� The oven runs a separate fan to >> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. >> >> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through >> three of them in that time. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs >> >I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas >turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite >after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep. > >So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the >contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for. > >Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to >operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong answers -- Next! The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop burners suffices. This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar Thermador, and it is useless without mains power. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> > wrote: > >On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: > >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next > >>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned > >>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated > >>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those > >>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it > >>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when > >>>> warm after running the stove overnight. > >>> > >>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible > >>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital > >>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type > >>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. > >>> > >>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has > >>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical > >>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works > >> perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) > >> > >> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to > >> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. > >> > >> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through > >> three of them in that time. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Phil Hobbs > >> > >I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas > >turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite > >after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep. > > > >So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the > >contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for. > > > >Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to > >operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage? > We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking > for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer > by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question > is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might > imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong > answers -- Next! > > The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but > the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and > broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop > burners suffices. > > This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar > Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago and lasted a few hours
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On 12/12/2021 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:> On 12/12/21 4:15 AM, John Walliker wrote: >> On Sunday, 12 December 2021 at 09:38:30 UTC, Michael Schwingen wrote: >> >>>> Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after >>>> only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast? >>> Quite probably yes - I remember a series of TFT monitors some years ago >>> where that happened to the on-board controller. Raising/lowering VCC may >>> help a bit (if it is not read-protected, you might try to read the memory at >>> different VCC levels and see if you can get correct data, and then >>> re-program). > > Oh, that doesn't sound good. In that case I'd rather redesign it to fully > analog. Seems like less work and then it'll never fail again.Gee, I sure wish you were designing LCD monitors, power supplies, etc. as I see THOUSANDS of those, annually, that seem to fail quite easily!
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:15:52 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 12/12/21 7:01 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next >>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned >>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated >>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those >>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it >>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when >>>> warm after running the stove overnight. >>> >>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible >>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital >>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type >>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. >>> >>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has >>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical >>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. >>> >>> >>> >> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works >> perfectly after 11 years.� (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) >> > >I wouldn't want that unless it could also be started with a match. In >case of a power outage and because spare parts for that are eventually >bound to become unobtanium. > > >> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.� The oven runs a separate fan to >> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. >> > >As long as it issues a warning if that fan ever stalls. I prefer >low-tech ovens such as this: > >https://www.luckybelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Where-to-Start-When-Building-a-DIY-Pizza-Oven.png > > >> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through >> three of them in that time. >> > >We have a dishwasher for over 20 years now where I was skeptical at >purchase time. The sales guy assured me there were no electronics inside >and he was right. While it has modern-style pushbuttons that look like >digital controls they are like on the old gas guzzlers with push button >transmission buttons. You press one and there is an assuring kerchunk >happening behind the panel. Looks very repairable in case it ever goes. > >That dishwasher was deeply discounted because people wanted high-falutin >ones with LCD or at least VFD panels.Our clothes washer got erratic so I replaced the mechanical timer, the thing with a drum and a zillion cam switches. It was easy, after the youtube tutorial. -- I yam what I yam - Popeye
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On 12/12/2021 7:10 PM, whit3rd wrote:>>> Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after >>> only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast? > > There's a 'remedy' in the power-on self test (POST) for many systems, which > is a checksum. It wouldn't be a fix, just an 'uh-oh squad' fingerpointing > exercise. Reprogramming or replacement is the best bet. My experience with older machines is, > EPROMs can often last a long time (1986 MacPlus still boots, 1983 auto computer still runs it).+1 I've several old boxen that still run (Compaq Portable 2, Portable 386, SPARCstation Voyager, even a "Megaboard" from CP/M days, etc.). IME, the issues that limit lifespan are: - bad batteries in NVRAMs (or, batteries that fail and are too hard to source) - bad caps in power supplies (sooner or later!) - mechanisms that dry out from lack of use (floppies) Of course, I image every programmable device in this sort of kit so I can always refabricate if a problem develops, there. So far, the only need has been to manually edit the disk parameter tables to define larger drive "types" (cuz finding < 1GB disks is hard!)
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On 14-Dec-21 4:59 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn: >> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> >> wrote: >>> On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next >>>>>> appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned >>>>>> off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated >>>>>> via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those >>>>>> willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it >>>>>> off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when >>>>>> warm after running the stove overnight. >>>>> >>>>> I don't want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That's a horrible >>>>> environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital >>>>> kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type >>>>> electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass. >>>>> >>>>> Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has >>>>> electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical >>>>> thermostat. Guess which one still works. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works >>>> perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.) >>>> >>>> Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to >>>> keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long. >>>> >>>> Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we've gone through >>>> three of them in that time. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Phil Hobbs >>>> >>> I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas >>> turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite >>> after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep. >>> >>> So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the >>> contents weren't cooked, one didn't even know how long it had been on for. >>> >>> Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to >>> operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage? >> We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking >> for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer >> by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question >> is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might >> imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong >> answers -- Next! >> >> The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but >> the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and >> broiler also don't work without mains power. But four stovetop >> burners suffices. >> >> This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar >> Thermador, and it is useless without mains power. > > last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago and lasted a few hours > >I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. People in the nearby suburb were without power for a week. This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables. Such things don't happen often, but when they do, being needlessly without the ability to cook things is really annoying. Sylvia.
Reply by ●December 13, 20212021-12-13
On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 11:09:59 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:> > > I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. > People in the nearby suburb were without power for a week. > > This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables. > > Such things don't happen often, but when they do, being needlessly > without the ability to cook things is really annoying.Now that I've lived in various places in Puerto Rico I have a better appreciation of what happened after Maria. The island is only 100 miles by 35 miles, but the entire central portion of the island is mountainous with homes only along the various roads. Everything is on poles. If *all* of the wires and poles are destroyed it takes a long time for them to be replaced everywhere. I've talked to people who were within the greater San Juan area who had no power for months. Other regions had no power and no water. People lived by using generators and hauling gasoline and water. Even food was hard to find for a while. The problem was not the people. The problem was no longer having infrastructure. Makes it hard to get anything done. Add in a total lack of support from the Federal Government and it results in a slow recovery. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy's law, the next >appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned >off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it's all buttons that are operated >via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those >willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it >off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when >warm after running the stove overnight. > >The micro controller is a Winbond W78E52BF-24 running on a 12MHz >crystal. It is based on what they call electrically erasable MTP-ROM >with which I assume they mean EEPROM. Date code is 2001 and that is also >when we had that pellet stove installed. > >Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after >only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast?1. Yes it's possible. High temperatures will speed it up (that's how they test retention). 2. Remedy? Get a spare board, design one (not worth it financially) or replace the appliance. The memory will be locked to prevent it from being read (easily). 3. Make *sure* you're not seeing a side effect of a failing power supply. Power supply ripple from failing (high ESR) e-caps would be my very first suspicion in a device that old that operates at elevated temperatures. -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:56:32 -0800 (PST), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> > >The problem was not the people. The problem was no longer having infrastru= >cture. Makes it hard to get anything done. Add in a total lack of support= > from the Federal Government and it results in a slow recovery.=20Jones Act doesn't help either, from what I've heard. https://i2.wp.com/www.grassrootinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5-18-jones-act-cartoon.png?w=1626&ssl=1 -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
