On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 2:41:14 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:54:25 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes: > > > Only if in a cooling mode. If in the heating mode, they do not. > > With the singular exception of portable dehumidifiers, which are heat > > pumps but both sides are in the same box - the cooling side dries the > > air, and the heating side heats is back up. Net result including waste > > heat - warmer, drier, air. > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners than anything else. Air is drawn through the 32o cooling coil to condense the moisture. From there it is blown through the condensor coil to bring it back up to its original temperature. This keeps net air temperature unchanged.That's a funny way to put it and not actually correct. The purpose is to reduce the work required to move the heat and make the cold coil, cold. The air will end up at a higher temperature because the unit is producing heat. It is also extracting heat from the moisture in the air. So the net is a temperature rise. With the cooler air blowing over the hot coils, the pump works less hard to drive the process. -- Rick C. +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Anyone hear of a 120V clothes dryer?
Started by ●October 4, 2021
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 23.22.19 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:33:34 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 19.27.55 UTC+2 skrev bitrex: > > > On 10/4/2021 4:55 AM, Sylvia Else wrote: > > > > On 04-Oct-21 7:27 pm, Rob wrote: > > > >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on > > > >>> an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before? > > > >>> > > > >>> I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a > > > >>> standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 > > > >>> degrees. Still, those aren't very high current. > > > >> > > > >> Over here in Europe we have clothes dryers that use heat pumping > > > >> instead of electric heating. They use like 700-1000W of power so > > > >> they could easily work from a standard 120V socket. > > > > > > > > They no doubt save energy, but at what cost? They don't sound economic. > > > > > > > > Sylvia. > > > They make these portable dishwashers also, you can wash literally about > > > 5 dishes in them: > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYboBVP0EE> > > > > > > I'm not so un-ameniable to "women's work" that I can't hand-wash 5 > > > dishes and some knives and forks. Loading and programming the machine > > > probably takes longer, anyway. > > but it saves water and things get cleaner .. > It saves how much water...? You can only save what is being used by hand washing which isn't much for five plates and some silver. If hand washing gets them clean, how can the washer get them "cleaner"? Is this like a volume control that goes to 11? >do you have a dishwasher? try it
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 21.30.34 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 2:56:08 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 20.41.14 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: > > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:54:25 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > > > Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes: > > > > > Only if in a cooling mode. If in the heating mode, they do not. > > > > With the singular exception of portable dehumidifiers, which are heat > > > > pumps but both sides are in the same box - the cooling side dries the > > > > air, and the heating side heats is back up. Net result including waste > > > > heat - warmer, drier, air. > > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners than anything else. Air is drawn through the 32o cooling coil to condense the moisture. From there it is blown through the condensor coil to bring it back up to its original temperature. This keeps net air temperature unchanged. > > not possible, the energy used to drive the dehumidifier (+ whats gained from condensing water) has to go somewhere > Fundamental misunderstanding of how refrigeration works...latent heat of phase change of liquid is absorbed by the refrigerant and pumped to high pressure/ temperature by the compressor for release back into the air stream through the condenser coil.I understand how refrigeration works, if the humidifier uses power it heats the air. Evaporating water took energy, condensing it back to liquid adds energy to the refrigerant
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 2:57:25 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:> On 2021/10/04 12:30 a.m., Rick C wrote: > > The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before? > > > > I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 degrees. Still, those aren't very high current. > > > 26 of them at Home Depot: > > https://www.homedepot.com/b/Appliances-Washers-Dryers-Dryers-Electric-Dryers/120-volt/N-5yc1vZc3q1Z1z17ja4This one says 15 amps, so it requires a 20 amp circuit? Or are they specifying the circuit capacity? They are not at all clear on the electrical requirement, but they give tons of info on running the duct! Nothing about the connector. But they do say the power cord is included! Just no details on what to plug it into. -- Rick C. ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 3:49:37 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote:> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> writes: > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners > > than anything else. > Depends on how pedantly you define "heat pump." It's pumping heat, just > like air conditioners, refrigerators, minisplits, and everything else > that uses phase change thermal transfer systems. > > But if you define "heat pump" as "that, but reversible"... yeah, most of > those things are not heat pumps. > > This keeps net air temperature unchanged. > My warm basement disagrees with you. All the power used to *run* the > dehumidifier causes heat, which is included in the airflow, so the > outgoing air is warmer than the incoming air. Not by much, but it is.There is also the latent heat of evaporation of the water that is condensed. By turning it into liquid a bunch of heat is extracted from the moisture and released as heat which raises the temperature of the air. The energy used to evaporate the moisture in the first place didn't raise the temperature of the air. That's why it is called "latent" heat. But once you remove that heat from the moisture and release it into the air it does raise the temperature. There's also the heat extracted to bring the water temperature below room temp as an unavoidable by product. That also ends up in the air through the coil. If the water drains away the temperature of the air remains higher. If the water is in equilibrium with the air the heat is reabsorbed. The heat in the water is not trivial. That's the main event at this circus! -- Rick C. +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on an > extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before?fire investigators probably come across this often.> I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a > standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 degrees. > Still, those aren't very high current.Open the door and read the name plate. Specs will be there. To decode the outlet lookup these NEMA receptacle designations 5-15R 5-20R 6-15R 6-20R
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:37:48 PM UTC-4, palli...@gmail.com wrote:> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > =========================== > > > > Energy used in clothes drying is not very much compared to heating the homes. > > In fact, everything other than heating and cooling is pretty much in the noise for electric usage. > ** Fridges and water heaters are the big consumers in homes - cos they are always running and being used.Fridges are small potatoes because a 120V, few amp refrigerator would need to run maybe 96 hours a day to equal what your heat pump furnace uses in an hour. I looked it up once and I think it equates to about 200 watts. A heat pump can use up to 4 kW average through a cold night. You don't need many to swamp the fridge. My electric bill changes from ~$50 a month in the really nice months (no heat or AC) to near $200 when the AC or heat is running at max. Here you go, "Domestic fridge power consumption is typically between 100 and 250 watts. Over a full day, a fridge is likely to use between 1 to 2 kilowatt-hours (kWh). This translates into a running cost of about $150 per year per fridge." My heating/cooling costs are several hundreds of dollars per year, maybe as much as $1,000. The $50 a month number includes both the fridge and the hot water heater and lights, computers, etc. So clearly the heating and cooling swamp everything else pretty handily. I suppose if you have a lot of people in your house and use a lot of hot water and keep the fridge door open you can run up those numbers.> > Even an EV is small in comparison unless you have a rather long commute. > ** Absolute bullshit. > > think Win uses a 120V outlet to charge his hybrid and almost never uses gasoline. > ** FFS a "hybrid" is a petrol engine car.Which can be charged from the AC line. Do you ever pay attention to what other people say here? Win has talked about this extensively. I don't recall the length of his commute, but I recall it is short enough that he can charge overnight easily and not use gasoline at all unless he needs to do other driving. I think it was 15 or 20 one way. It would be ok to discuss stuff with you, but as soon as you think you've found someone in a mistake, you jump on them and start swearing like an idiot. No one who knows what they are talking about has to swear. It makes you sound like a moron, which is only appropriate part of the time... such as now. -- Rick C. ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:01:14 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote: > > On 2021-10-04, Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:54:25 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > >> Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes: > > >> > Only if in a cooling mode. If in the heating mode, they do not. > > >> With the singular exception of portable dehumidifiers, which are heat > > >> pumps but both sides are in the same box - the cooling side dries the > > >> air, and the heating side heats is back up. Net result including waste > > >> heat - warmer, drier, air. > > > > > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners > > > than anything else. Air is drawn through the 32o cooling coil to > > > condense the moisture. From there it is blown through the condensor > > > coil to bring it back up to its original temperature. This keeps net > > > air temperature unchanged. > > That is obviously false, you gain the latent heat of condensation and > > also the heat from all the ineficiencies of the machine. > The heat of condensation is returned to the (cooled) air stream. It is not gained. Unless you care to explain how returning heat you just removed from the air creates a runaway effect. The heat from machine inefficiency is a small fraction of the heat exchange with the humid air.No, the heat of evaporation (condensation) ends up in the cold coils as well as the heat extracted from the water which is below room temperature now. This ends up in the hot coils and in the warmed air stream even if it is simply because the unit warms up and radiates, conducts, convects the heat from the rest of the device.> > Anyway I think the question was about heat-pump clothes dryers (where > > you don;'t gain condensation heat because the water was evaporated > > from the clothes)Now that I think about it, if you use a heat pump to dry clothes, it will be backwards from a standard room dehumidifier. I think they would first warm the air to pass through the dryer and pick up moisture. That air would be run over the cold coils to extract the water and return the heat to improve efficiency of the unit. Yeah, I think this sort of dryer could be run without a vent since the moisture is collected and drains away! -- Rick C. ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 5:39:06 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 23.22.19 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:33:34 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 19.27.55 UTC+2 skrev bitrex: > > > > On 10/4/2021 4:55 AM, Sylvia Else wrote: > > > > > On 04-Oct-21 7:27 pm, Rob wrote: > > > > >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >>> The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's also on > > > > >>> an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that before? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same size as a > > > > >>> standard 120V connector but having one or more pins turned 90 > > > > >>> degrees. Still, those aren't very high current. > > > > >> > > > > >> Over here in Europe we have clothes dryers that use heat pumping > > > > >> instead of electric heating. They use like 700-1000W of power so > > > > >> they could easily work from a standard 120V socket. > > > > > > > > > > They no doubt save energy, but at what cost? They don't sound economic. > > > > > > > > > > Sylvia. > > > > They make these portable dishwashers also, you can wash literally about > > > > 5 dishes in them: > > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYboBVP0EE> > > > > > > > > I'm not so un-ameniable to "women's work" that I can't hand-wash 5 > > > > dishes and some knives and forks. Loading and programming the machine > > > > probably takes longer, anyway. > > > but it saves water and things get cleaner .. > > It saves how much water...? You can only save what is being used by hand washing which isn't much for five plates and some silver. If hand washing gets them clean, how can the washer get them "cleaner"? Is this like a volume control that goes to 11? > > > do you have a dishwasher? try itTry what? How do I measure the water the dishwasher uses??? -- Rick C. --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 4, 20212021-10-04
Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote in news:slrnslm389.k1s.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl:> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org > <DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org> wrote: >> Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote in >> news:slrnsllio0.57u.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl: >> >>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 04-Oct-21 7:27 pm, Rob wrote: >>>>> Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> The dryer here seems to be plugged into a 120V outlet. It's >>>>>> also on an extension cord. Anyone see anything like that >>>>>> before? >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose it's actually a 240V connector which is the same >>>>>> size as a standard 120V connector but having one or more pins >>>>>> turned 90 degrees. Still, those aren't very high current. >>>>> >>>>> Over here in Europe we have clothes dryers that use heat >>>>> pumping instead of electric heating. They use like 700-1000W >>>>> of power so they could easily work from a standard 120V >>>>> socket. >>>> >>>> They no doubt save energy, but at what cost? They don't sound >>>> economic. >>>> >>>> Sylvia. >>> >>> They cost like 300 euro more, which we save on electricity costs >>> in about 4 years. >>> >>> Not a stunning economic difference, but you know what? In >>> Europe we do consider the environment, and are not only watching >>> pennies as a decisiion criterium when buying energy wasting >>> equipment. >>> >>> Maybe in the US you should start doing that too! >>> >> >> We do and have for decades. We call them Clothes lines. > > Yes that is what I am using as well, I only depicted what a dryer > would be here. They are used by people with limited indoor space, > or maybe lazy people who don't like to hang the clothes on a line > one by one. >I would make a machine that takes longer but uses far less energy.
