On 11/22/2021 1:31 PM, Keegan Major wrote:
>> We're not talking about doing 50 dishes we're doing five!  How could
>> I use 15-30 gallons of water washing five dishes and some associated
>> flatware.
> 
> You have obviously never watched a woman do dishes by hand in a sink.
> Here's how that goes:
> 
> 1) Turn water faucet on full (as in maximum flow)

Why would you do that?  It only makes it harder to hold the item
*in* the water stream and likely splashes water around to places
that you'd prefer to keep dry!  Esp if you've got most of the
dirty dishes/pan/pots in the sink!

> 2) Proceed with washing each item (for your example five dishes, at 30
>     sec/dish, then 2.5 minutes is expended in washing dishes)

We have YET to use the dishwasher we bought ~10 years ago!
With just two of us, here, all the plates, pots and pans needed
to make (and consume) a meal can be washed in far less time
than it would take to load them into the dishwasher and retrieve
them, once done.

And, they'd *sit* in the dishwasher for days (making it even harder for
the dishwasher to scrub them clean) until we had even a PARTIAL load
to justify the electricity and inconvenience to run it.

[E.g., I just washed this evening's pots/pans/dishes/flatware.
So, I can *use* all of those items later on, tonight, when I
want to make a snack.  No need to have an "extra" wok around
because the first one is in the dishwasher!]

> 3) Only at end of step 2, after completing every dish, does the water
>     faucet get turned back off (i.e., it has been running continiously
>     during the entire 2.5 minutes, whether the water squirting out was
>     being used, or simply going straight down the drain)

We place the pots/pans that were used to prepare a meal into the
sink as soon as the foodstuffs have been plated.  Anything that
has residues that might dry and cling to the surfaces or sticky
(e.g., rice) gets a quick rinse (to knock everything off the sides
and into the bottom of the pan/pot).  A bit of water is added to
keep things hydrated.

[Amusingly, Rice Krispies cling to the sides of a pot as if
superglued there!]

If a LOT of water is required, then we throw any utensils and smaller
items into the pot while it soaks.

By the time the meal is done, all we have to do is drag a sponge
over any residue in the pots/pans and rinse the soap out.  The
soapy water is then dumped into the next pot/pan.

Repeat for the plates.

The sponge is then rinsed and microwaved (boiling the clean water
contained within it to help kill off anything that wants to "grow")

> Result, assuming a 'standard' flow rate US faucet, is 2.5min X 2.2
> gal/min for 5.5 gal of water consumed to wash five dishes.  Even more
> if there are more dishes to wash.

I suspect most folks run water at closer to 1-1.5 GPM.  And, folks
with flow restrictors on their faucets may find that a stretch.

You can buy faucets with PIr sensors that "watch" for your
hands to gate the waterflow.  I had rescued some "foot pedals"
from a dentist's office (to control hot/cold water without
"contaminating" his hands) but have decided the electronic
solution is cleaner:  set water temperature and flow rate; let
PIr sensor turn water on/off instead of having to "stand on
your heels" to operate foot pedals.

>> The detergent and elbow-grease does the bulk of the work you don't
>> need to fill the whole fuckin' sink up for five dishes and five set
>> forks spoons and knives, and let them sit in the tub of shit-ass
>> dirty water while you "clean" them, damn.
> 
> Nope, and the faucet does not need to be "on" the entire time, but it
> seems that is the 'method' (faucet running the entire time) that many
> use for hand dish washing.  And it is the "fully flowing faucet" that
> generates the wasted water vs.  a dish washer's fixed fill amount.

My "worst case" water waste comes when I make red sauce.  I buy the
tomatoes in #10 cans (105 oz?).  Rinsing them out takes a fair bit of
water, owing to the surface area involved.  Ditto with the Tomato
Paste cans (really thick, sticky stuff in small/narrow cans).

But, I dump the (dirty) water from one cleaned can into the next
so I only "lose" (spill) a little from each can.  And, do the tinier
"paste" cans last (after laving them to soak in one of the larger
cans) so I have more than enough (dirty) water for their needs.

[I question whether or not the water costs justify the value of
recycling the cans.  But, soiled cans would attract insects in
the week or two that they'd sit out in the recycling container, in
the heat of the day!  And, just discarding them is wasteful.]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:snho7g$ve$1@dont-email.me: 

> On 11/6/2021 3:55 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> 
>>> I'm working to help a friend start up another one, here. There
>>> are *so* many surplus laptops and computers available that it
>>> becomes a challenge to find ways of *using* them -- effectively.
>>>> This was the original choice for Disney in Florida, and they
>>>> were told to go away, so they went to Orlando.
>>> Ooops!
>>> 
>> Actually, it was a good thing. If they had been built here, we
>> would have been stuck between more amusement parks and 'The
>> Villages' The amusement parks turned Orlando into a real mess.
> 
> Yeah, apologies but Florida is ... "odd".  OK place to visit, but
> (you know the rest  :> )
> 
>>>> Another closed a few years ago. They were still using wide
>>>> carriage OKI Dot Matrix printers and Win 95
>>> 
>>> Christ! "Third world"?
>> 
>> They were bought and sold several times by 'Investors' who only
>> took money out of the business rather than invest. The Dot Matrix
>> printers were needed because they used four ply NCR forms because
>> they catered to contractors. The software was so old that it
>> couldn't drive a laser printer, or even keep electronic records
>> for accounting. 
> 
> I've a friend, here, who buys up every piece of old Sun kit that
> he can find.  His employer's business runs on Sun
> hardware/software so the employer keeps thinking that he can avoid
> the inevitable retrofit by buying up old it.  Sooner or later,
> he'll discover the old kit is TOO old and too costly to repair!
> 
>>> Sorry I can't think of any other avenues that you can pursue.
>>> But, it seems like they're likely going to be closed to you.
>> 
>> I'm to the point that I'm just looking for computers to donate to
>> a local Vets Helping Vets' where they refurbish systms to give
>> away. They have volunteers who trade time for learning how to
>> repair computers. 
> 
> Most of the places I've worked with refurbish newer models (no
> real "repair" as there are enough working new ones that you can
> afford to just scrap the old or broken ones).  So, the "free
> labor" usually comes in the form of disabled or "challenged"
> individuals who use it as either a social event *or* to instill
> structure into their lives. 
> 
> As the goal isn't to recover usable it, you're not too concerned
> if someone *breaks* a PCB in the attempt to remove it from a
> machine. 
> 
>>> Every place I've lived has had a large recycling market --
>>> usually not very visible to the public, at large -- essential to
>>> handling the high volume of stuff that gets discarded
>>> "routinely" ("Time for our 18-36 month upgrade cycle..."). It's
>>> just a matter of "tuning in" to it. 
>>> 
>>> I have floor to ceiling industrial shelving (1000 lbs per shelf)
>>> lining both sides of my garage. I spent $35 for the lot. Else,
>>> it would have been scrapped -- melted down (at some cost of
>>> energy) and recycled. 
>>> 
>>> I've refurbished several power chairs and electric wheelchairs.
>>> A few of those little motorized "skateboards" (?). Countless
>>> pieces of home-healthcare kit. "Stereos", electric organs, etc.
>>> The range of items that we've received -- and RETURNED to use in
>>> the community -- is alarming.
>>> 
>>> And we won't accept MANY of the things that folks discard still
>>> in salvageable condition!
>> 
>> I'm to the point that I don't have the energy to haul truckloads
>> of equipment around. I am currently modifying a pile of video D/A
>> from 75 to 50 ohm to use to distribute 10MHz reference signals.
>> Their -3dB point is around 350 MHz. They may be my last project
>> before I start selling off my test equipment and spare parts. The
>> open wound on my left leg still hasn't healed, in over a year of
>> being treated. I have to spend so much time with my legs propped
>> above my head that it has cost me a lot of muscle mass. 
> 
> Ouch!  Can you have a set of resistive pedals mounted high so you
> can try to use those larger muscle groups even while reclined? 
> Or, does that irritate (further open) the wound?
> 
> I was laid up for a while many years ago.  I was alarmed at how
> quickly it affected my body/musculature to not be engaged in the
> normal activities to which I'd been accustomed.  "Use it or lose
> it" is such a truism! 

  You lose weight because your body begine to consume itself.
Not the best diet method.
> 
> And, as you get older, there are consequences to "losing it"!
> 
  I hate that.  Shtuff stops working and there is no replacement 
coming!

  But by the same token, I start getting hair where I don't want it 
and losing it in places I want to keep it.

  Psoriasis sucks, big time.  My body is giving up on me before I 
want it to.  I was supposed to break a record and live to be 140!


> Good luck!

Keegan Major <keegan.major@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> We're not talking about doing 50 dishes we're doing five!  How could 
>> I use 15-30 gallons of water washing five dishes and some associated 
>> flatware.
>
> You have obviously never watched a woman do dishes by hand in a sink.  
> Here's how that goes:
>
> 1) Turn water faucet on full (as in maximum flow)
>
> 2) Proceed with washing each item (for your example five dishes, at 30 
>    sec/dish, then 2.5 minutes is expended in washing dishes)
>
> 3) Only at end of step 2, after completing every dish, does the water 
>    faucet get turned back off (i.e., it has been running continiously 
>    during the entire 2.5 minutes, whether the water squirting out was 
>    being used, or simply going straight down the drain)
>
> Result, assuming a 'standard' flow rate US faucet, is 2.5min X 2.2 
> gal/min for 5.5 gal of water consumed to wash five dishes.  Even more 
> if there are more dishes to wash.

I wash my dishes that way, and I can assure you that I do not spend
nearly near 30 seconds per item.  That is a long time!

I normally put everything I have used during that meal in the sink,
then start picking up items and cleaning them under the water flow using
a sponge.  By the time I have picked up and cleaned half of the items,
the water flowing down over the other items in the sink has already
partly cleaned those, so the last items are even quicker to clean than
the first ones.

Using maximum flow is not very productive, it just makes a bigger mess.

On 11/6/2021 3:55 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:

>> I'm working to help a friend start up another one, here. There are *so*
>> many surplus laptops and computers available that it becomes a challenge
>> to find ways of *using* them -- effectively.
>>> This was the original choice for Disney in Florida, and they were told
>>> to go away, so they went to Orlando.
>> Ooops!
>> 
> Actually, it was a good thing. If they had been built here, we would have
> been stuck between more amusement parks and 'The Villages' The amusement
> parks turned Orlando into a real mess.

Yeah, apologies but Florida is ... "odd".  OK place to visit, but (you know the
rest  :> )

>>> Another closed a few years ago. They were still using wide carriage OKI
>>> Dot Matrix printers and Win 95
>> 
>> Christ! "Third world"?
> 
> They were bought and sold several times by 'Investors' who only took money
> out of the business rather than invest. The Dot Matrix printers were needed
> because they used four ply NCR forms because they catered to contractors.
> The software was so old that it couldn't drive a laser printer, or even keep
> electronic records for accounting.

I've a friend, here, who buys up every piece of old Sun kit that he
can find.  His employer's business runs on Sun hardware/software so
the employer keeps thinking that he can avoid the inevitable
retrofit by buying up old it.  Sooner or later, he'll discover
the old kit is TOO old and too costly to repair!

>> Sorry I can't think of any other avenues that you can pursue. But, it
>> seems like they're likely going to be closed to you.
> 
> I'm to the point that I'm just looking for computers to donate to a local
> Vets Helping Vets' where they refurbish systms to give away. They have
> volunteers who trade time for learning how to repair computers.

Most of the places I've worked with refurbish newer models (no real
"repair" as there are enough working new ones that you can afford
to just scrap the old or broken ones).  So, the "free labor" usually
comes in the form of disabled or "challenged" individuals who use it
as either a social event *or* to instill structure into their lives.

As the goal isn't to recover usable it, you're not too concerned if
someone *breaks* a PCB in the attempt to remove it from a machine.

>> Every place I've lived has had a large recycling market -- usually not
>> very visible to the public, at large -- essential to handling the high
>> volume of stuff that gets discarded "routinely" ("Time for our 18-36 month
>> upgrade cycle..."). It's just a matter of "tuning in" to it.
>> 
>> I have floor to ceiling industrial shelving (1000 lbs per shelf) lining
>> both sides of my garage. I spent $35 for the lot. Else, it would have been
>> scrapped -- melted down (at some cost of energy) and recycled.
>> 
>> I've refurbished several power chairs and electric wheelchairs. A few of
>> those little motorized "skateboards" (?). Countless pieces of
>> home-healthcare kit. "Stereos", electric organs, etc. The range of items
>> that we've received -- and RETURNED to use in the community -- is
>> alarming.
>> 
>> And we won't accept MANY of the things that folks discard still in 
>> salvageable condition!
> 
> I'm to the point that I don't have the energy to haul truckloads of
> equipment around. I am currently modifying a pile of video D/A from 75 to 50
> ohm to use to distribute 10MHz reference signals. Their -3dB point is around
> 350 MHz. They may be my last project before I start selling off my test
> equipment and spare parts. The open wound on my left leg still hasn't
> healed, in over a year of being treated. I have to spend so much time with
> my legs propped above my head that it has cost me a lot of muscle mass.

Ouch!  Can you have a set of resistive pedals mounted high so you can
try to use those larger muscle groups even while reclined?  Or, does
that irritate (further open) the wound?

I was laid up for a while many years ago.  I was alarmed at how quickly
it affected my body/musculature to not be engaged in the normal activities
to which I'd been accustomed.  "Use it or lose it" is such a truism!

And, as you get older, there are consequences to "losing it"!

Good luck!

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
> On 10/4/2021 7:03 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> tirsdag den 5. oktober 2021 kl. 00.38.00 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 5:39:06 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>> mandag den 4. oktober 2021 kl. 23.22.19 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
>>>>> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:33:34 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>>> but it saves water and things get cleaner ..

>>>>> It saves how much water...?  You can only save what is being used 
>>>>> by hand washing which isn't much for five plates and some silver.  
>>>>> If hand washing gets them clean, how can the washer get them 
>>>>> "cleaner"?  Is this like a volume control that goes to 11?
>>>>>
>>>> do you have a dishwasher? try it

>>> Try what? How do I measure the water the dishwasher uses???
>> 
>> afaik it is required to use less than 5 gallons,  EnergyStar ~3 
>> gallons those who tried it came to the conclusion that doing the 
>> same load by hand take 5-10 times as much
>> 
>> and the water is hotter and the detergent more effective so the 
>> dishes get cleaner
> 
> We're not talking about doing 50 dishes we're doing five!  How could 
> I use 15-30 gallons of water washing five dishes and some associated 
> flatware.

You have obviously never watched a woman do dishes by hand in a sink.  
Here's how that goes:

1) Turn water faucet on full (as in maximum flow)

2) Proceed with washing each item (for your example five dishes, at 30 
   sec/dish, then 2.5 minutes is expended in washing dishes)

3) Only at end of step 2, after completing every dish, does the water 
   faucet get turned back off (i.e., it has been running continiously 
   during the entire 2.5 minutes, whether the water squirting out was 
   being used, or simply going straight down the drain)

Result, assuming a 'standard' flow rate US faucet, is 2.5min X 2.2 
gal/min for 5.5 gal of water consumed to wash five dishes.  Even more 
if there are more dishes to wash.

> The detergent and elbow-grease does the bulk of the work you don't 
> need to fill the whole fuckin' sink up for five dishes and five set 
> forks spoons and knives, and let them sit in the tub of shit-ass 
> dirty water while you "clean" them, damn.

Nope, and the faucet does not need to be "on" the entire time, but it 
seems that is the 'method' (faucet running the entire time) that many 
use for hand dish washing.  And it is the "fully flowing faucet" that 
generates the wasted water vs.  a dish washer's fixed fill amount.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:00:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 7:27 PM, Michael Terrell wrote: 
> >> With the county's policies in place, you really need to find an "advocate" 
> >> to work on your behalf to make your cause visible and bypass any 
> >> "preconceptions" donors might have wrt the county's program. 
> >> 
> >> Ideally, you'd partner with the county and solve THEIR problem as well as 
> >> your own -- at no cost to either of you! 
> > 
> > The last point of sale system I got my hands on came from a supermarket. It 
> > was a 'Datachecker' made by National Semiconductor.
>
> Did it resemble a bunch of stiff wires with *beads* that slide along it? :>
>
It had the weirdest had drives that I ever saw. They stored all the UPC information. and they used a motor loaded cartridge, and it didn't look like any other removable media that I've seen. It looked like it used RS485 or similar communications. I still have most of the circuit boards and some of the printers, but I didn't bother with either. They have been locked in my old workshop for over 20 years from when I used a large solder put to salvage a lot of common ICs that I couldn't get when I needed them. An Esico Triton 75T Solder Pot melts a lot of area at one time. If the leads are straight, a quick flip and tap cased most parts t fly off the board, onto a sheet of aluminum.  Some large ICs required a small pair of channel locks to grasp the ends and lift. During the 256 kbit ram shortage I salvaged ad sold thousands for $2,75 each, when new were spiking to $20. Those were the fallout from large uses who speed tested them before assembly, and they sold ff the slowest. The boards I processed came from fairly new Unisys systems, under a certified destruction program. If they had any questions, I could give them a stack of depopulated boards as evidence. :)

> > I went in to buy something for lunch. The guy that maintained their cash 
> > registers yelled, "THAT'S HIM!" and pointed at me. I gave them $100 for 
> > three trailer loads of electronics, including two mini computers I got ten 
> > heavy, cast aluminum barcode scanners, about 14 registers, all the cables 
> > receipt printers and a forklift battery charger. It included a electric 
> > pallet jack that some ass drove off the dock into their dumpster while I 
> > was hauling everything else off. It was impossible to remove.
>
> Oooo.... sad! Even a regular pallet jack is worth having!
>
> > I sold the laser tubes and power supplies for $400, untested. The mini 
> > computers were in six foot racks. They had four doors, and were 19" on one 
> > side, but 24" when turned 90 degrees. They are still in my shop, to store 
> > tools and test equipment.
> I had a pair of short (~20U?) racks that had finished tops (so you 
> could use them as tables of a sort). I used to have a pair of 9T 
> tapes in each. Dumped the tapes, at one point. Held onto the 
> racks -- until I figured the space was worth more than the racks. 
> Sadly regret having made that decision as I could really use them, 
> now (40U racks are just too tall)
> > I sold the 12 shield pair cables at $1 a foot to 
> > make audio snakes, and salvaged several hundered dollars worth of metals 
> > along with some nice linear power supplies. 
> 
> > I tried Chamber of Commerce and local governments, but they weren't 
> > interested i helping. This area brags aout being horse farms, neglecting 
> > that the State of Kentucky has farms the size of this county.
> (sigh) You're screwed. Here, damn near any "reasonably" good idea 
> will fly (for a non-profit). Lots of people with lots of resources 
> and a desire to "make a difference". Finding just one "angel" can 
> usually get an organization started and -- assuming you demonstrate 
> that you can execute your mission -- you're set! 
> 
> I'm working to help a friend start up another one, here. There are 
> *so* many surplus laptops and computers available that it becomes 
> a challenge to find ways of *using* them -- effectively.
> > This was the original choice for Disney in Florida, and they were told to go 
> > away, so they went to Orlando.
> Ooops!
>
Actually, it was a good thing. If they had been built here, we would have been stuck between more amusement parks and 'The Villages' The amusement parks turned Orlando into a real mess.
>
> > Most businesses around here either use corporate computers, or even 5-0 year 
> > old cash registers. A large, local hardware store just closed. No computers. 
>
It reopened, but it is for sale.
>
> > Another closed a few years ago. They were still using wide carriage OKI Dot 
> > Matrix printers and Win 95
>
> Christ! "Third world"? 
>
They were bought and sold several times by 'Investors' who only took money out of the business rather than invest. The Dot Matrix printers were needed because they used four ply NCR forms because they catered to contractors.  The software was so old that it couldn't drive a laser printer, or even keep electronic records for accounting. 
> 
> Sorry I can't think of any other avenues that you can pursue. But, it seems 
> like they're likely going to be closed to you.
>
I'm to the point that I'm just looking for computers to donate to a local Vets Helping Vets' where they refurbish systms to give away. They have volunteers who trade time for learning how to repair computers.
> 
> Every place I've lived has had a large recycling market -- usually 
> not very visible to the public, at large -- essential to handling the 
> high volume of stuff that gets discarded "routinely" ("Time for our 
> 18-36 month upgrade cycle..."). It's just a matter of "tuning in" 
> to it. 
> 
> I have floor to ceiling industrial shelving (1000 lbs per shelf) 
> lining both sides of my garage. I spent $35 for the lot. Else, 
> it would have been scrapped -- melted down (at some cost of energy) 
> and recycled. 
> 
> I've refurbished several power chairs and electric wheelchairs. 
> A few of those little motorized "skateboards" (?). Countless 
> pieces of home-healthcare kit. "Stereos", electric organs, etc. 
> The range of items that we've received -- and RETURNED to use 
> in the community -- is alarming. 
> 
> And we won't accept MANY of the things that folks discard still in 
> salvageable condition!

I'm to the point that I don't have the energy to haul truckloads of equipment around. I am currently modifying a pile of video D/A from 75 to 50 ohm to use to distribute 10MHz reference signals. Their -3dB point is around 350 MHz. They may be my last project before I start selling off my test equipment and spare parts. The open wound on my left leg still hasn't healed, in over a year of being treated. I have to spend so much time with my legs propped above my head that it has cost me a lot of muscle mass.