On 10/4/2021 9:16 PM, Don Y wrote:> On 10/4/2021 6:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >> >> My house actually has electronics to measure power consumption on each >> circuit. Monthly cost based on the last 22 days: >> >> Fridge $7.56 >> Freezer, dehumidifier, and ice maker (all on same circuit) $36.52 >> Washer $0.23 >> Dryer (three adults) $7.80 >> Geothermal $33.76 (we're between seasons, used a bit of cooling) >> Well (includes geothermal's use) $25.32 >> office minisplit $8.23 >> >> Computers $211.64 > > What do you pay per KWHr (as that can be all over the map!)? > E.g., the central air conditioner would consume considerably > more than a minisplit-per-room (you only cool one room?) >OP can answer for his area, in the Fl. panhandle I pay $0.174 per kWH, this includes all fees and taxes. Otherwise, $0.132 before government taxes their bite. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Anyone hear of a 120V clothes dryer?
Started by ●October 4, 2021
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 5:30:34 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 2:41:14 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:54:25 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > > Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes: > > > > Only if in a cooling mode. If in the heating mode, they do not. > > > With the singular exception of portable dehumidifiers, which are heat > > > pumps but both sides are in the same box - the cooling side dries the > > > air, and the heating side heats is back up. Net result including waste > > > heat - warmer, drier, air. > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners than anything else. Air is drawn through the 32o cooling coil to condense the moisture. From there it is blown through the condensor coil to bring it back up to its original temperature. This keeps net air temperature unchanged. > > That's a funny way to put it and not actually correct. The purpose is to reduce the work required to move the heat and make the cold coil, cold. The air will end up at a higher temperature because the unit is producing heat. It is also extracting heat from the moisture in the air. So the net is a temperature rise. With the cooler air blowing over the hot coils, the pump works less hard to drive the process.Really? Who do you think you're fooling? You don't have a clue in hell what you're talking about. The so-called process is loaded by the heat removal, block the airflow and watch the wattage consumption hit bottom to see this, and since getting the air cooled to blow over the condenser has less than ideal efficiency, it doesn't make the "pump" compressor "work less hard." You're just a pretentious troll.> > -- > > Rick C. > > +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On 10/5/2021 5:59 AM, amdx wrote:> On 10/4/2021 9:31 PM, Don Y wrote: >> On 10/4/2021 6:51 PM, amdx wrote: >>> On 10/4/2021 8:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >>>> My house actually has electronics to measure power consumption on each >>>> circuit. Monthly cost based on the last 22 days: >> >> -------------^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>>> Dryer (three adults) $7.80 >>> >>> That comes to $129 per year. >> >> Assuming he's already normalized those 22 day figures to a 30 day month, >> that comes to $93.60/year. > > > $7.80 / 22 = $0.3545 per day x 365 days = $129.40 > > That's how I calculated it.I'm assuming his *raw* data -- "based on 22 days of observation" -- was closer to $0.26/day (7.80/30) or $5.72. He then prorated that *up* to $7.80 to reflect what the "Monthly cost based on the last 22 days" would be..
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On 10/5/2021 6:06 AM, amdx wrote:> On 10/4/2021 9:16 PM, Don Y wrote: >> On 10/4/2021 6:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >>> >>> My house actually has electronics to measure power consumption on each >>> circuit. Monthly cost based on the last 22 days: >>> >>> Fridge $7.56 >>> Freezer, dehumidifier, and ice maker (all on same circuit) $36.52 >>> Washer $0.23 >>> Dryer (three adults) $7.80 >>> Geothermal $33.76 (we're between seasons, used a bit of cooling) >>> Well (includes geothermal's use) $25.32 >>> office minisplit $8.23 >>> >>> Computers $211.64 >> >> What do you pay per KWHr (as that can be all over the map!)? >> E.g., the central air conditioner would consume considerably >> more than a minisplit-per-room (you only cool one room?) >> > OP can answer for his area, in the Fl. panhandle I pay $0.174 per kWH, this > includes all fees and taxes. > > Otherwise, $0.132 before government taxes their bite.We're at 14.26c/KWHr, all inclusive. Cost of the *electricity* was $56 (out of that $240) -- about 3 or 4c/KWHr.
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 6:07:14 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 3:49:37 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> writes: > > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners > > > than anything else. > > Depends on how pedantly you define "heat pump." It's pumping heat, just > > like air conditioners, refrigerators, minisplits, and everything else > > that uses phase change thermal transfer systems. > > > > But if you define "heat pump" as "that, but reversible"... yeah, most of > > those things are not heat pumps. > > > This keeps net air temperature unchanged. > > My warm basement disagrees with you. All the power used to *run* the > > dehumidifier causes heat, which is included in the airflow, so the > > outgoing air is warmer than the incoming air. Not by much, but it is. > There is also the latent heat of evaporation of the water that is condensed. By turning it into liquid a bunch of heat is extracted from the moisture and released as heat which raises the temperature of the air. The energy used to evaporate the moisture in the first place didn't raise the temperature of the air. That's why it is called "latent" heat. But once you remove that heat from the moisture and release it into the air it does raise the temperature. There's also the heat extracted to bring the water temperature below room temp as an unavoidable by product. That also ends up in the air through the coil. If the water drains away the temperature of the air remains higher. If the water is in equilibrium with the air the heat is reabsorbed. The heat in the water is not trivial. That's the main event at this circus!You're a blithering idiot.> > -- > > Rick C. > > +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On 10/5/2021 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:> On 10/5/2021 6:06 AM, amdx wrote: >> On 10/4/2021 9:16 PM, Don Y wrote: >>> On 10/4/2021 6:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >>>> >>>> My house actually has electronics to measure power consumption on each >>>> circuit. Monthly cost based on the last 22 days: >>>> >>>> Fridge $7.56 >>>> Freezer, dehumidifier, and ice maker (all on same circuit) $36.52 >>>> Washer $0.23 >>>> Dryer (three adults) $7.80 >>>> Geothermal $33.76 (we're between seasons, used a bit of cooling) >>>> Well (includes geothermal's use) $25.32 >>>> office minisplit $8.23 >>>> >>>> Computers $211.64 >>> >>> What do you pay per KWHr (as that can be all over the map!)? >>> E.g., the central air conditioner would consume considerably >>> more than a minisplit-per-room (you only cool one room?) >>> >> OP can answer for his area, in the Fl. panhandle I pay $0.174 per kWH, this >> includes all fees and taxes. >> >> Otherwise, $0.132 before government taxes their bite. > > We're at 14.26c/KWHr, all inclusive. Cost of the *electricity* > was $56 (out of that $240) -- about 3 or 4c/KWHr.By way of comparison, Seattle is in the 11-12c range while San Diego is up at 35c. If my monthly bill was $480 (~30c/KWhr), I'd likely be a lot more careful about my usage patterns! (like setting the PCs to sleep "more quickly" -- instead of waiting an hour to do so as I often walk away for a half-hour or more). But, knowing that most of our bill is due to the increased cooling costs, I'd doubt I would be able to make much of a dent in it (without increased personal discomfort).
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 6:35:25 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:01:14 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote: > > > On 2021-10-04, Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:54:25 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: > > > >> Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes: > > > >> > Only if in a cooling mode. If in the heating mode, they do not. > > > >> With the singular exception of portable dehumidifiers, which are heat > > > >> pumps but both sides are in the same box - the cooling side dries the > > > >> air, and the heating side heats is back up. Net result including waste > > > >> heat - warmer, drier, air. > > > > > > > > Dehumidifiers are not heat pumps. They're more like air conditioners > > > > than anything else. Air is drawn through the 32o cooling coil to > > > > condense the moisture. From there it is blown through the condensor > > > > coil to bring it back up to its original temperature. This keeps net > > > > air temperature unchanged. > > > That is obviously false, you gain the latent heat of condensation and > > > also the heat from all the ineficiencies of the machine. > > The heat of condensation is returned to the (cooled) air stream. It is not gained. Unless you care to explain how returning heat you just removed from the air creates a runaway effect. The heat from machine inefficiency is a small fraction of the heat exchange with the humid air. > No, the heat of evaporation (condensation) ends up in the cold coils as well as the heat extracted from the water which is below room temperature now. This ends up in the hot coils and in the warmed air stream even if it is simply because the unit warms up and radiates, conducts, convects the heat from the rest of the device. > > > Anyway I think the question was about heat-pump clothes dryers (where > > > you don;'t gain condensation heat because the water was evaporated > > > from the clothes) > Now that I think about it, if you use a heat pump to dry clothes, it will be backwards from a standard room dehumidifier. I think they would first warm the air to pass through the dryer and pick up moisture. That air would be run over the cold coils to extract the water and return the heat to improve efficiency of the unit. Yeah, I think this sort of dryer could be run without a vent since the moisture is collected and drains away!None of this material is top secret, it is available lots of places and simply explained. No one needs to hear your fantasizing about how anything works.> > -- > > Rick C. > > ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote:> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> writes: > > Of course it is. If your basement is getting warm, you don't have > > enough ventilation. I assume you're talking about cooling season, so > > you might consider running an A/C instead of dehumidifier. > We're between seasons; the dehumidifyer is a 24/7 version that runs all > year long (although it cycles less often in the winter, of course) to > protect my shop tools from rust and keep the wood humidity more > constant. The geothermal system has a few vents in the basement to help > with temperature.So there's a minor detail of this place being a "shop" and not a climate controlled finished space. Was going to say if you have to run the dehumidifier 24/7, the construction is cheap with major air leaks and other means of moisture infiltration. It would be simpler to rehabilitate the construction by sealing the air and water leaks.
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote:> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> writes: > > Of course it is. If your basement is getting warm, you don't have > > enough ventilation. I assume you're talking about cooling season, so > > you might consider running an A/C instead of dehumidifier. > We're between seasons; the dehumidifyer is a 24/7 version that runs all > year long (although it cycles less often in the winter, of course) to > protect my shop tools from rust and keep the wood humidity more > constant. The geothermal system has a few vents in the basement to help > with temperature.Fine Homebuilding has a ton of articles and books on fixing air leaks: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/air-sealing-basics You might save yourself a bundle with a 5$ tube of calk and some elbow grease. I wouldn't put up with you have for 5 minutes.
Reply by ●October 5, 20212021-10-05
On 10/5/2021 6:32 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-4, DJ Delorie wrote: >> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> writes: >>> Of course it is. If your basement is getting warm, you don't have enough >>> ventilation. I assume you're talking about cooling season, so you might >>> consider running an A/C instead of dehumidifier. >> We're between seasons; the dehumidifyer is a 24/7 version that runs all >> year long (although it cycles less often in the winter, of course) to >> protect my shop tools from rust and keep the wood humidity more constant. >> The geothermal system has a few vents in the basement to help with >> temperature. > > So there's a minor detail of this place being a "shop" and not a climate > controlled finished space.That doesn't necessarily follow. Many folks here set up (wood) shops in their extra garage bays (because we don't have basements and the womenfolk tend to get annoyed at having lathes set up in spare bedrooms!) which are "climate controlled". In fact, it is almost essential if you want to store any lumber, steel, etc. around (the alternative being outdoors -- or, in the forbidden bedrooms!).> Was going to say if you have to run the > dehumidifier 24/7, the construction is cheap with major air leaks and other > means of moisture infiltration. It would be simpler to rehabilitate the > construction by sealing the air and water leaks.Likewise, without knowing WHERE he is located, it isn't possible to imagine the reason for the "problems". Living in New England, basements were often "high humidity" just as a consequence of the wetter environment and the lack of below-grade air circulation. We ran a dehumidifier in our "laundry room" to help keep the air, there, less humid (the extra heat thrown off in the "furnace room" eliminated the need for it, there. and, the workshop was too busy with tools to bother with such "obstructions") Here, we'd consider adding humidification to help improve comfort levels. I'm fond of running the swamp cooler in the Summer (before Monsoon) as the cool, moist air feels delightful on my skin. But, SWMBO dislikes it. And, given the nature of a democracy, her vote counts more than mine (so I have to tolerate year round refrigeration)
