On 20 Jun., 16:33, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- Web-Site.com> wrote:> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > > > > > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Jun 19, 8:03=A0pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: > >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com..=.> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > > >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: > > >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =3DA0Alternator dio=des> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output i=s> >> > >below the battery voltage. > > >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvolt=age> >> > spikes? > > >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. =A0 I am > >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. =A0There are probab=ly> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. > > >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car th=an any> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it =or> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want ou=r> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of char=ging> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not > >> working. > > >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > >battery terminal, as the other poster said. =A0I just don't buy the idea > >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. =A0When i > >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. =A0So, > >i am getting too little power, not too much. =A0Engineering is about > >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. =A0I > >don't claim to know everything about charging. > > You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >well as long as the load doesn't change, the voltage shouldn't change i.e. if the 20A load isn't the battery there shouldn't be a voltage spike where should it come from? if you go buy a kill switch for a race car it comes with a ~3R resistor, I assume that is what they think is sufficient to shunt the current that might be charging the battery -Lasse
Alternator problem
Started by ●June 18, 2011
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in news:u44vv6tvitk9stutl7qc9etpvsmb7tct1h@4ax.com:> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:12:45 -0500, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> > wrote:>>You might get 120 volts AC from a modified car alternator,but it's not >>going to be 50-60 Hz AC. >>Anything using a transformer will overheat or burn up. > > "Standard" alternator is 3-phase, full-wave rectified. I have heard > of people re-winding them to get 120VAC. > > ...Jim ThompsonYou still won't get 50-60 hz out of one,unless you manage to spin it at the right RPM and have scaled the new windings to produce single phase 120V AC at that RPM. Highly unlikely. you might as well buy a proper generator. (and get more power and the right freq.) -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Jun 20, 7:33�am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >Web-Site.com> wrote: >> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >> >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >On Jun 19, 8:03�pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: >> >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >> >> >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... >> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: >> >> >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >> >> >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes >> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >> >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >> >> > >below the battery voltage. >> >> >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvoltage >> >> > spikes? >> >> >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. � I am >> >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. �There are probably >> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. >> >> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car than any >> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it or >> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want our >> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of charging >> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not >> >> working. >> >> >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with >> >battery terminal, as the other poster said. �I just don't buy the idea >> >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. �When i >> >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. �So, >> >i am getting too little power, not too much. �Engineering is about >> >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. �I >> >don't claim to know everything about charging. >> >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >> > >So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into >the load?_Where_ did I say that? But Confucius did say, "He who runs alternator without battery be big fool" ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in message news:famvv65637ghljra6qpukr8ejgthm9rtch@4ax.com...> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT), linnix > <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >>On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >>Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix >>> >>> >>> >>> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>> >On Jun 19, 8:03 pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: >>> >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >>> >>> >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... >>> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: >>> >>> >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >>> >>> >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator >>> >> > >> diodes >>> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >>> >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator >>> >> > >output is >>> >> > >below the battery voltage. >>> >>> >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with >>> >> > overvoltage >>> >> > spikes? >>> >>> >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. I >>> >> am >>> >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. There are >>> >> probably >>> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. >>> >>> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this >>> >> car than any >>> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either >>> >> fix it or >>> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't >>> >> want our >>> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of >>> >> charging >>> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still >>> >> is not >>> >> working. >>> >>> >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with >>> >battery terminal, as the other poster said. I just don't buy the >>> >idea >>> >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. When i >>> >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. >>> >So, >>> >i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about >>> >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I >>> >don't claim to know everything about charging. >>> >>> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >>> >> >>So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into >>the load? > > _Where_ did I say that? > > But Confucius did say, "He who runs alternator without battery be big > fool" ;-) >It is the connect/disconnet that will kill the avalanche diodes in alternators. My chevy truck has two terminals on the Bat + with a lead spacer. Turns out the lead spacer deforms over time with temperature cycling, causing a bad connection. Pop, bad diode as a result. Took out the lead washer, no more bad diodes ;D Cheers
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Jun 20, 4:40=A0pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- Web-Site.com> wrote:> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Jun 20, 7:33=A0am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My=-> >Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >> >On Jun 19, 8:03=A0pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: > >> >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > >> >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.co=m...> >> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > > >> >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: > > >> >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =3DA0Alternator =diodes> >> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >> >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator outpu=t is> >> >> > >below the battery voltage. > > >> >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overv=oltage> >> >> > spikes? > > >> >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. =A0 I =am> >> >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. =A0There are pro=bably> >> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. > > >> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car=than any> >> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix =it or> >> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want=our> >> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of c=harging> >> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is =not> >> >> working. > > >> >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > >> >battery terminal, as the other poster said. =A0I just don't buy the i=dea> >> >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. =A0When i > >> >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. =A0S=o,> >> >i am getting too little power, not too much. =A0Engineering is about > >> >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. =A0I > >> >don't claim to know everything about charging. > > >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. > > >So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into > >the load? > > _Where_ did I say that? >You are agreeing with him.> But Confucius did say, "He who runs alternator without battery be big > fool" ;-)I am just disagreeing with his claim that hundred of volt is surging into my load. So, tell me. What is the voltage surging into my 0.5 ohm load, with the head light on?
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:41:43 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Jun 20, 4:40�pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >Web-Site.com> wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >> >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >On Jun 20, 7:33�am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >> >Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >> >On Jun 19, 8:03�pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: >> >> >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >> >> >> >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >> >> >> >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes >> >> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >> >> >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >> >> >> > >below the battery voltage. >> >> >> >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvoltage >> >> >> > spikes? >> >> >> >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. � I am >> >> >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. �There are probably >> >> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. >> >> >> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car than any >> >> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it or >> >> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want our >> >> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of charging >> >> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not >> >> >> working. >> >> >> >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with >> >> >battery terminal, as the other poster said. �I just don't buy the idea >> >> >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. �When i >> >> >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. �So, >> >> >i am getting too little power, not too much. �Engineering is about >> >> >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. �I >> >> >don't claim to know everything about charging. >> >> >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >> >> >So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into >> >the load? >> >> _Where_ did I say that? >> > >You are agreeing with him. > >> But Confucius did say, "He who runs alternator without battery be big >> fool" ;-) > >I am just disagreeing with his claim that hundred of volt is surging >into my load. >So, tell me. What is the voltage surging into my 0.5 ohm load, with >the head light on?Suppose you have an alternator outputting 30A into your battery, because it is discharged. If you suddenly remove the battery it IS possible for the alternator voltage to rise to 400V... I've seen it. Any accessory directly attached to the alternator is likely to get smoked. In the mid '60's my design requirement was for my regulator to survive that 400V spike... no matter that it may well kill the mechanic who lifted the battery cable... I kid you not, I probably still have the spec in my files. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in message news:u44vv6tvitk9stutl7qc9etpvsmb7tct1h@4ax.com...>>You might get 120 volts AC from a modified car alternator,but it's not >>going to be 50-60 Hz AC. >>Anything using a transformer will overheat or burn up. > > "Standard" alternator is 3-phase, full-wave rectified. I have heard > of people re-winding them to get 120VAC. >As I recall, some high end cars had an option for the Sierracin windshield de-icers (like the ones used on commercial aircraft). I had seen a few over the years and recall that it had a separate alternator with a higher voltage output, possibly 3-phase. there were voltage warnings on the ones I had seen so assuming that was higher than 48Vrms. WAI-Wetherill, a supplier of starter and alternator rebuild parts used to have some great technotes on their site. The site recently is pretty impossible to find something. Used to be that you could purchase re-wound stators and specials.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in message news:lnrvv61le7fps5a93is938a7b7p7criq3j@4ax.com...>>So, tell me. What is the voltage surging into my 0.5 ohm load, with >>the head light on? > > Suppose you have an alternator outputting 30A into your battery, > because it is discharged. If you suddenly remove the battery it IS > possible for the alternator voltage to rise to 400V... I've seen it. > Any accessory directly attached to the alternator is likely to get > smoked. In the mid '60's my design requirement was for my regulator > to survive that 400V spike... no matter that it may well kill the > mechanic who lifted the battery cable... I kid you not, I probably > still have the spec in my files.Hey Linnix - Word of advice here. Don't argue with Jim Thompson. He designed automotive regulators for Motorola and knows of what he speaks. Guy's probably got more patents to his name than most of the folks that post here. (me, I have none but do get my hands dirty a lot)
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On 21 Jun., 03:34, "Oppie" <Op...@127.0.0.1> wrote:> "Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote =in> messagenews:lnrvv61le7fps5a93is938a7b7p7criq3j@4ax.com... > > >>So, tell me. =A0What is the voltage surging into my 0.5 ohm load, with > >>the head light on? > > > Suppose you have an alternator outputting 30A into your battery, > > because it is discharged. =A0If you suddenly remove the battery it IS > > possible for the alternator voltage to rise to 400V... I've seen it. > > Any accessory directly attached to the alternator is likely to get > > smoked. =A0In the mid '60's my design requirement was for my regulator > > to survive that 400V spike... no matter that it may well kill the > > mechanic who lifted the battery cable... I kid you not, I probably > > still have the spec in my files. > > Hey Linnix - Word of advice here. Don't argue with Jim Thompson. > He designed automotive regulators for Motorola and knows of what he speak=s.> Guy's probably got more patents to his name than most of the folks that p=ost> here. (me, I have none but do get my hands dirty a lot)both have a point, if the load is the battery and you remove it you will get a voltage spike because it takes time to lower the field. If the load is the headlights and you remove the battery nothing happens because the load is still the same but once you remove the battery theres nothing to shunt the spike if you shut off the head lights -Lasse
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
On Jun 20, 6:34=A0pm, "Oppie" <Op...@127.0.0.1> wrote:> "Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote =in> messagenews:lnrvv61le7fps5a93is938a7b7p7criq3j@4ax.com... > > >>So, tell me. =A0What is the voltage surging into my 0.5 ohm load, with > >>the head light on? > > > Suppose you have an alternator outputting 30A into your battery, > > because it is discharged. =A0If you suddenly remove the battery it IS > > possible for the alternator voltage to rise to 400V... I've seen it. > > Any accessory directly attached to the alternator is likely to get > > smoked. =A0In the mid '60's my design requirement was for my regulator > > to survive that 400V spike... no matter that it may well kill the > > mechanic who lifted the battery cable... I kid you not, I probably > > still have the spec in my files. > > Hey Linnix - Word of advice here. Don't argue with Jim Thompson. > He designed automotive regulators for Motorola and knows of what he speak=s.> Guy's probably got more patents to his name than most of the folks that p=ost> here. (me, I have none but do get my hands dirty a lot)Yes, i know at least he listen to reasonings. In my controlled test environment, the Lexus was started and in low idle (700RPM) with the head lights on. I use it to observe the load before i get to connect the voltmeter. I disconnected the battery briefly to check the alternator and load voltage. The voltage dropped from 12.5V to around 8V to 10V, so i know the alternator is too weak at idle. I reconnected the battery before ramping it up to 1000RPM, the voltage peaks at 14V. I believe the alternator (just purchased) and regulator are good. The car was never gear shifted or moved. This is nothing compared to what i am doing with my 94 Corolla. The thin metal (not the solid one like others) connectors are broken, My clamp on connectors sometimes get loose. Yes, it did fry the regulator, but at high RPM, i believe. I have been driving with bad regulator for years, no battery explosion and no dead ECU. However, i do have a bank of deep cycle batteries to capture the excess voltage and i discharge them on my drive way lights at home. Currently, i manually switch in the backup batteries, just to see how far i can push it. Eventually, probably an AVR, PIC or ARM controller. If this kill the Corolla, time for a newer car. I have been waiting for years.
