On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:47:24 -0800 (PST), jezalanka@gmail.com wrote:
>On Saturday, June 18, 2011 at 6:41:07 PM UTC-6, linnix wrote:
>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ...
>>
>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM
>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At
>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to
>> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People
>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a
>> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that
>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or
>> worst?
One of two causes. The most likely is a bad diode in the alternator.
Since all modern alternators are controlled by the PCM, something
could be wrong in there. My bet is a bad diode. You should be able
to hear the loud ripple in your radio.
Check the field voltage. It should be 8-10 volts at idle. If it is
maxed out at 12+ volts then a bad diode is almost certain. If it is
low then you must cast an eye on the PCM.
The output is almost certainly a PWM signal, smoothed by the field
inductance. If you have a scope, you can check the field voltage for
the presence of a PCM signal.
About a year ago I had a neighbor with similar indications. Crysler
minivan. It used a bare chip transistor buried in goo. It was open.
I replaced it with a TO-packaged 100 volt, 80 amp IGBT and everything
worked fine.
John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.comhttp://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Reply by Andy●January 20, 20182018-01-20
On Sunday, June 19, 2011 at 11:35:08 AM UTC-5, linnix wrote:
> On Jun 19, 7:35 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> > On 6/18/2011 8:41 PM, linnix wrote:
> >
> > > I know many engineers here work on cars, so ...
> >
> > > I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM
> > > alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At
> > > idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to
> > > charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People
> > > suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a
> > > smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that
> > > cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or
> > > worst?
> >
> > Fix the problem with the alternator, don't patch or modify the system in
> > an attempt to work around the problem.
> >
> > It could be a defective alternator, (you say replacements, how many, and
> > from what source?) or regulator, battery, or wiring. Also you cannot
> > measure 8 to 10 volts on the alternator! The battery is 12 volts, so
> > that is the minimum you'd measure. If you are seeing 8 to 10 volts with
> > the system connected properly and engine idling, fix the problem.
> >
> > --
> > I'm never going to grow up.
>
> The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows
> the regulator? I have loose battery connections more than once, with
> car/alternator that are still running. Other loads on the system are
> enough to clamp down the output, to avoid serious damages. You guys
> never have loose battery connections?
>
> According to this "Car Improvement" site, i just need "more
> power!!!". The 3000W machine can output 3 times more power than the
> OEM one. More than enough to power the electric seat warmers, and
> perhaps a fridge and microwave as well.
>
> https://www.dcpowerinc.com/articles/truth-about-idle
I think you need to take your car to a shop that specializes in electrical repair.
Some of the things you are doing are causing more damage.
Andy
Reply by M Philbrook●January 20, 20182018-01-20
In article <8f8ee7e7-0406-4a83-b281-746552946812@googlegroups.com>,
jezalanka@gmail.com says...
>
> On Saturday, June 18, 2011 at 6:41:07 PM UTC-6, linnix wrote:
> > I know many engineers here work on cars, so ...
> >
> > I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM
> > alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At
> > idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to
> > charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People
> > suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a
> > smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that
> > cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or
> > worst?
>
> one of the most often overlooked things you may want to check is the battery terminal connectors. the "strap" type connectors tend to take a set and increase resistance to current flow over time. resistance is futile on a 14Vdc system. look for corrosion inside the cables. the alternator to battery cable is usually equipped with a "fusible link"(often a calibrated short length of reduced sized wire in series with the alternator cable). Fusible links fail completely in a
spectacular fashion. more often the connecting points corrode.
> next up is failing grounds. note the negative battery lead is directly connected to the engine block. a key word for a good ground is "clean" another is "bright metal". takes a lot of voltage to push current thru dirt and paint. dirt and paint are bad words when discussing grounds. and you only have 14 volts to play with.
> 13.8 - 14.2Vdc are the voltage targets i look for on automotive electrical power supplies. below that the battery is flowing current into the electrical system. less than that at idle speed means the alternator has low output for some reason. loose belts, loose or high resistance connections, failed diodes failed voltage regulator, failed wiring, the list is long.
interesting artical here..
I'll add some comments here..
First off, how did he determine it was 8 volts at the low end? Being
connected to the battery while measuring isn't going to show you this
unless the battery is actually discharged down to that level?
So this leads to believe that already the test is flawed because the
last thing you want to do is disconnect the battery while it's running!
Looking at the post it is assumed that a new alternator has been
install with the equal results?
There has been cases where a burnt out GEN indicator lamp will actually
cause the alternator to charge low because the regualator depends on the
equalizing load between the two for proper regulation..
If a connections is suspect then do the usual checks and clean ups..
Next, you using a volt meter while car is running, test between points
not ground. For example the ground lug on the alternator to the (-) of
the bat post to see if there is much of a pentential, if so, then there
is obviously a grounding issue, the same with the (+) output to the bat
(+), this would also leed to a weak connection there too!
Jamie
Reply by ●January 19, 20182018-01-19
On Saturday, June 18, 2011 at 6:41:07 PM UTC-6, linnix wrote:
> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ...
>
> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM
> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At
> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to
> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People
> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a
> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that
> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or
> worst?
one of the most often overlooked things you may want to check is the battery terminal connectors. the "strap" type connectors tend to take a set and increase resistance to current flow over time. resistance is futile on a 14Vdc system. look for corrosion inside the cables. the alternator to battery cable is usually equipped with a "fusible link"(often a calibrated short length of reduced sized wire in series with the alternator cable). Fusible links fail completely in a spectacular fashion. more often the connecting points corrode.
next up is failing grounds. note the negative battery lead is directly connected to the engine block. a key word for a good ground is "clean" another is "bright metal". takes a lot of voltage to push current thru dirt and paint. dirt and paint are bad words when discussing grounds. and you only have 14 volts to play with.
13.8 - 14.2Vdc are the voltage targets i look for on automotive electrical power supplies. below that the battery is flowing current into the electrical system. less than that at idle speed means the alternator has low output for some reason. loose belts, loose or high resistance connections, failed diodes failed voltage regulator, failed wiring, the list is long.
Reply by David Lesher●July 21, 20112011-07-21
Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> writes:
>>My Honda alternator is similar; it too has 8 main diodes not 6.
>>The last 2 are from the wye connection, not legs.
>>
>>But I've never been to grok how/why that is better than the usual
>>6 main and 3 tiny aux diodes.
>They're surge clamps, not diodes.
They appear to have the same PN's as the other 6.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Reply by Jim Thompson●July 21, 20112011-07-21
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:56:29 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>>http://173.224.223.62/alternator/
>
>
>My Honda alternator is similar; it too has 8 main diodes not 6.
>The last 2 are from the wye connection, not legs.
>
>But I've never been to grok how/why that is better than the usual
>6 main and 3 tiny aux diodes.
They're surge clamps, not diodes.
...Jim Thompson
[On the Road, in New York]
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
My Honda alternator is similar; it too has 8 main diodes not 6.
The last 2 are from the wye connection, not legs.
But I've never been to grok how/why that is better than the usual
6 main and 3 tiny aux diodes.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Reply by linnix●June 30, 20112011-06-30
I don't see my posting from yesterdays.
On Jun 27, 11:31=A0am, "Oppie" <Op...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> "John Larkin" <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in messa=
ge
> > Most car alternators seem to need a couple of amps on the field.
Yes, most likely 3 to 4 amps.
>
> I wanted to test a suspected bad alternator and used the vertical mill at=
my
> office. Clamped the alternator into a vise and put a pulley on the chuck.
> Tensioned it out and slowly increased the speed. This was a self-excited
> unit for marine use that relied on some residual rotor magnetization to k=
ick
> start the output. At the point where the regulator engaged, (about 2500
> alternator RPMs), the drive belt really began to screech from the torque
> load. Turned out all was OK, no shorted coils or diodes. The rotor just w=
as
> sucking up all that energy.
My regulator turn-on at 1600RPM (or 700RPM for engine). It's not
supplying enough current at idle.
See:
http://173.224.223.62/alternator/
Reply by linnix●June 29, 20112011-06-29
On Jun 27, 10:10=A0am, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 10:34:26 -0700 (PDT), linnix
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> >On Jun 25, 9:54 am, John Larkin
> ><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:45:41 -0700 (PDT), linnix
>
> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> >> >On Jun 25, 9:29 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-M=
> >> >> >wrote:
> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:05:52 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
>
> >> >> >> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >You don't have to separate anything.
>
> >> >> >> >Start engine.
>
> >> >> >> >Measure current from alternator to battery versus RPM.
>
> >> >> >> >Report back ;-)
>
> >> >> >Yes, sir.
>
> >> >> >> > ...Jim Thompson
> >> >> >> >--
>
> >> >> >> Use a DC clamp-on meter and you don't even have to lift the batt=
ery
> >> >> >> lead.
>
> >> >> >> Best regards,
> >> >> >> Spehro Pefhany
>
> >> >> >I am going to build a tester to do it properly, outside the engine=
.
> >> >> >This will get my wife off my back, as well as for the followings:
>
> >> >> >http://173.224.223.62/alternator/
> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> >> >> >This is in response to JT's challenge to hack the Lexus's alternat=
or.
> >> >> >I would need around 100mA to drive the field coil between -6V and
> >> >> >+12V, using an op-amp summer, driven by the PIC. The op-amp negati=
ve
> >> >> >rail will be powered by a bunch of max3232 switched capacitor boos=
ters/
> >> >> >inverters.
>
> >> >> >The goal is to shift/flatten the output curve of the OEM alternato=
> >> >> OpAmp jag... gaawwwwd :-)
>
> >> >Yes, that's possible. If you can can give us a good cheap negative
> >> >inverter circuit, I can try it out. I am sure other Lexus owners
> >> >would be willing pay hundreds for this latest JT alternator.
>
> >> It's an interesting variant on a boost-buck switcher. In buck mode,
> >> the alternator field inductance is all the filtering you need. In
> >> boost mode, an additional inductor (or possibly charge pump) is
> >> needed.
>
> >> Yup, a small uP, with a PWM port or two, should manage it.
>
> >> Does the field only need 100 mA? That's impressive.
>
> >> John
>
> >Yes, that's in the unit test report: 0.1A
>
> Most car alternators seem to need a couple of amps on the field.
Yes, i think it needs 3 to 4 amps (4 to 3 ohms coil), despite what the
unit test report say. The enclosed report also says it's externally
regulated, which is wrong.
http://173.224.223.62/alternator/
Reply by linnix●June 29, 20112011-06-29
On Jun 25, 4:20=A0pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:37:15 -0700 (PDT), linnix
> > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>
> > >On Jun 24, 5:19 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My=
-
> > >Web-Site.com> wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:49:34 -0700 (PDT), linnix
>
> > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> > >> >On Jun 24, 2:32 pm, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> > >> >> On 6/24/2011 3:01 PM, linnix wrote:
>
> > >> >> >...
>
> > >> >> > According to the alternator speed, it's barely on with around 2=
5A.
> > >> >> > With 2 100W headlights of 16A total, it does not leave much for
> > >> >> > anything else.
>
> > >> >> Headlights are 55W each, as per DOT regulations, not 100W.
>
> > >> >Here is a 100W bulb:
>
> > >> >http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_446_827/hella_high_output_bul=
b_...
>
> > >> >> Again, you prove you are a troll...
>
> > >> >I am starting to have more respect for the other troll (wolf) you
> > >> >branded.
>
> > >> How did the car get 100W NON_STANDARD bulbs?
>
> > >Previous owner. =A0That might be part of the electrical problem. =A0I
> > >might have to down-grade it.
>
> > OK. =A0Now. =A0Current into the alternator, when connected to battery, =
but
> > NOT charging should only be field current... IF diodes are intact.
>
> > Measure that. =A0We'll figure this out yet :-)
>
> > Play along with me... I was the first to create a solid state
> > alternator regulator :-)
>
> =A0 =A0Eight diodes, internal regulator in the manual that I found online=
.
> I did a screen print of that page and posted it to ABSE.
>
I also have a picture of the internal regulator, and the plan to make
the mods. The problem is the turn-on RPM (700) same as the low idle
RPM. I am hoping to drive the field coil below ground (negative), in
order to turn it on at idle.
http://173.224.223.62/alternator/