linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> writes:>I know many engineers here work on cars, so ...>I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle.a) Never ever disconnect the battery on a running car. There's a few thou$and$ worth of electronics just waiting to die from a spike or two hundred. Yea, a DC meter says it's X volts. What's the scope say? And yes, there's a voltage regulator, but what is its response time? b) What happens when you test the alternators on an outboard testset? Autozone, "Advanced" AutoParts etc. have micro-p driven jigs that spin up and load down alternators. c) In my experience, 95% of weird-shit/head-scratcher autoelectrical issues can be traced to bad grounds. That could be battery to frame; frame to block; alternator to block, you name it. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Alternator problem
Started by ●June 18, 2011
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On 6/19/2011 12:35 PM, linnix wrote:> On Jun 19, 7:35 am, PeterD<pet...@hipson.net> wrote: >> On 6/18/2011 8:41 PM, linnix wrote: >> >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >> >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >>> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >>> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >>> worst? >> >> Fix the problem with the alternator, don't patch or modify the system in >> an attempt to work around the problem. >> >> It could be a defective alternator, (you say replacements, how many, and >> from what source?) or regulator, battery, or wiring. Also you cannot >> measure 8 to 10 volts on the alternator! The battery is 12 volts, so >> that is the minimum you'd measure. If you are seeing 8 to 10 volts with >> the system connected properly and engine idling, fix the problem. >> >> -- >> I'm never going to grow up. > > The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows > the regulator?Voltage spikes.> I have loose battery connections more than once, with > car/alternator that are still running.These cause all kinds of problems, including blown alternators.> Other loads on the system are > enough to clamp down the output, to avoid serious damages. You guys > never have loose battery connections? > > According to this "Car Improvement" site, i just need "more > power!!!". The 3000W machine can output 3 times more power than the > OEM one. More than enough to power the electric seat warmers, and > perhaps a fridge and microwave as well. > > https://www.dcpowerinc.com/articles/truth-about-idle-- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
"linnix" wrote in message news:5da6fae8-2112-4192-874a-fd34461d4fc8@y7g2000prk.googlegroups.com... I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or worst? I have the same problem with my car. It’s a 1999 Mercury Cougar. It idles at about 800 RPMs and that speed doesn't charge the battery unit the RPMs go to 1800 and above, while driving; the RPMs are often below this level too. I've measure battery voltage at different RPMs and confirmed this, also you can see the dashboard light up brighter once you step on the gas and get the RPMs up to 1800. My solution to this problem is; in winter (it's friggin cold here in central Canada) I put a battery charger on my car battery 2 or 3 times per winter. As soon as I notice that the electric windows are going up slower that they usually do, that evening I put on the charger. I've talk to ford about it and they deny the problem. I've gone through three alternators, until learning this the hard way and each time it was $500 to $700 to replace the alternator. Also if you battery is 5 year old or more, don't get it tested, just replace it with a factory replacement. If your battery starts to fail it will damage your alternator, then your have two things to replace. Shaun
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
"Shaun" wrote in message news:UQtLp.16585$tp.13395@newsfe06.iad... "linnix" wrote in message news:5da6fae8-2112-4192-874a-fd34461d4fc8@y7g2000prk.googlegroups.com... I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or worst? I have the same problem with my car. It’s a 1999 Mercury Cougar. It idles at about 800 RPMs and that speed doesn't charge the battery unit the RPMs go to 1800 and above, while driving; the RPMs are often below this level too. I've measure battery voltage at different RPMs and confirmed this, also you can see the dashboard light up brighter once you step on the gas and get the RPMs up to 1800. My solution to this problem is; in winter (it's friggin cold here in central Canada) I put a battery charger on my car battery 2 or 3 times per winter. As soon as I notice that the electric windows are going up slower that they usually do, that evening I put on the charger. I've talk to ford about it and they deny the problem. I've gone through three alternators, until learning this the hard way and each time it was $500 to $700 to replace the alternator. Also if you battery is 5 year old or more, don't get it tested, just replace it with a factory replacement. If your battery starts to fail it will damage your alternator, then your have two things to replace. Shaun I few other things I remembered to keep your battery charged. When I warm up the car in winter, I step on the accelerator to get the RPMs above 1800 so that I'm charging the battery. You can also drive in a lower gear whether you drive standard or automatic while city driving, this will raise the RPMs. Another trick is to disable the automatic headlights and just turn them on manually when it gets dark out. In my car I pull one the relays out of the fuse box, the headlights are a constant drain on the battery, something like 20 amps. I hope this all helps, Shaun
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On Sunday, June 19, 2011 9:35:08 AM UTC-7, linnix wrote:> > > ...alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle.[advise NEVER disconnecting the battery while running ]> The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows > the regulator?The alternator output is not the constant '10V' that your meter reads, but has peaks and valleys. It's possible that the regulator would stabilize at almost ANY average voltage output to keep (1) peak voltages under the battery safe limit or (2) alternator field windings within safe duty cycle limits. No-battery operation is not NORMAL operation, is not specified. So, a test with the battery missing doesn't give any useful information. And, if the peaks aren't detected/limited by the regulator, they could fry other electrical parts.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
>> >> According to this "Car Improvement" site, i just need "more >> power!!!". The 3000W machine can output 3 times more power than the >> OEM one. More than enough to power the electric seat warmers, and >> perhaps a fridge and microwave as well. >> >> https://www.dcpowerinc.com/articles/truth-about-idleAnd I'm sure that they have some "special magnets" you can put on the fuel line to line the gasoline atoms up for improved burn and double the gas mileage. Jim
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
whit3rd wrote:> On Sunday, June 19, 2011 9:35:08 AM UTC-7, linnix wrote: > > >>>>...alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. > > > [advise NEVER disconnecting the battery while running ] > > >>The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows >>the regulator? > > > The alternator output is not the constant '10V' that your > meter reads, but has peaks and valleys. It's possible that the > regulator would stabilize at almost ANY average voltage output > to keep (1) peak voltages under the battery safe limit or > (2) alternator field windings within safe duty cycle limits. > > No-battery operation is not NORMAL operation, is not specified. > So, a test with the battery missing doesn't give any useful > information. And, if the peaks aren't detected/limited by the > regulator, they could fry other electrical parts.Oh, did you have to tell him that! I love damage control! Jamie
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in news:itlpdu$qi0$1@speranza.aioe.org:> On 6/19/2011 12:35 PM, linnix wrote: >> On Jun 19, 7:35 am, PeterD<pet...@hipson.net> wrote: >>> On 6/18/2011 8:41 PM, linnix wrote: >>> >>>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >>> >>>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >>>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. >>>> At idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is >>>> insufficient to charge the battery. At high speed, it does put >>>> out 14V. People suggested speeding it up by changing the front >>>> pulley (65mm) to a smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might >>>> work. But would that cause problem at high speed, including >>>> burning out the alternator, or worst? >>> >>> Fix the problem with the alternator, don't patch or modify the >>> system in an attempt to work around the problem. >>> >>> It could be a defective alternator, (you say replacements, how many, >>> and from what source?) or regulator, battery, or wiring. Also you >>> cannot measure 8 to 10 volts on the alternator! The battery is 12 >>> volts, so that is the minimum you'd measure. If you are seeing 8 to >>> 10 volts with the system connected properly and engine idling, fix >>> the problem. >>> >>> -- >>> I'm never going to grow up. >> >> The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows >> the regulator? > > Voltage spikesthe battery acts as a filter capacitor,smoothing out the DC *PULSES* that the alternator outputs. your meter(DMM or analog meter?) may be reading the AVERAGE of the DC pulses,and if one or more alternator diodes are out,or leaky,it could explain the charging problem. the guy who posted the Autozone/Advance Auto Parts alternator tester suggestion has the right idea.> >> I have loose battery connections more than once, with >> car/alternator that are still running.so,that means you got away with it before.....maybe not this time.> > These cause all kinds of problems, including blown alternators.He could be damaging the engine electronics with the spikes,and/or other sensitive electronics. that could be costly;an ECU is expensive.> >> Other loads on the system are >> enough to clamp down the output, to avoid serious damages. You guys >> never have loose battery connections?-- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
linnix wrote:>I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >worst?The smaller pulley won't cause problems at high speed, and many police cars use them, but your car may not use a conventional pulley but a clutch pulley, and I suspect this could be the root of your problem. Web sites dedicated to Lexuses or Toyotas should have more about this. Check the quality of your alternator ground by clamping a battery jumper cable between the case and directly to the battery negative terminal. I had a VW that would put out an extra 0.5V when that was done. Don't run the alternator without the battery. Alternator diodes aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On Jun 19, 4:58=A0pm, jama...@my-deja.com wrote:> linnix wrote: > >I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. =A0The problem is that the OEM > >alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At > >idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to > >charge the battery. =A0 At high speed, it does put out 14V. =A0People > >suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > >smaller one. =A0I found a 45mm pulley that might work. =A0But would that > >cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or > >worst? > > The smaller pulley won't cause problems at high speed, and many police > cars use them, but your car may not use a conventional pulley but a > clutch pulley, and I suspect this could be the root of your problem. > Web sites dedicated to Lexuses or Toyotas should have more about this.I am think about changing the pulley on the alternator, which is a standard part for many toyotas. My corolla idle at 1000 RPM, but the lower RPM of the Lexus might not have enough power output. I am OK which burning out alternators or batteries, since we already had 2 alternators and 3 batteries for the past ten years anyway.> > Check the quality of your alternator ground by clamping a battery > jumper cable between the case and directly to the battery negative > terminal. =A0I had a VW that would put out an extra 0.5V when that was > done.I just did that, but no difference. Voltage remain under 13V until 1000 RPM.> > Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes > aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason.I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is below the battery voltage.
