linnix wrote:>>Don't run the alternator without the battery. Alternator diodes >>aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >below the battery voltage.> I just don't buy the idea of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load.I don't believe car alternators can ever put out more than about 60 volts DC, and that's only if the regulator shorts and full fields it, but spikes of hundreds of volts are possible even under normal operation. The 400PIV diodes I saw were from a 70A alternator and were by Motorola and rated 25A>When i > disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. So, > i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about > trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I > don't claim to know everything about charging.
Alternator problem
Started by ●June 18, 2011
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On 6/19/2011 8:32 PM, linnix wrote:> On Jun 19, 4:58 pm, jama...@my-deja.com wrote:>> >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. Alternator diodes >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > > I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is > below the battery voltage.You don't get it, and appear unable to understand what you are doing. There is no reason for you to continue to post here, you only hear what you want to hear, not what we are saying. NO one said 'extended'. No one said 'briefly' either. YOU SHOULD NEVER, EVER, DISCONNECT THE BATTERY FROM A RUNNING ENGINE. Doing so can damage both the alternator's electronics and the other electronics in the car. -- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:22:11 -0700 (PDT), the renowned jamarno@my-deja.com wrote:>I don't believe car alternators can ever put out more than about 60 >volts DC,You don't remember those boxes (as see on TV) that provided full battery voltage on the field coils to provide 120VAC RMS to power drills, lights or whatever (whatever being stuff that doesn't require AC, of course)? I never bought one, but probably someone here did. They didn't tell you in the ads, but I think you'd have had to rev the engine considerably to get full mains voltage. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message news:qobuv6himohhn80unodrhb9mklprk9tjao@4ax.com...> You don't remember those boxes (as see on TV) that provided full > battery voltage on the field coils to provide 120VAC RMS to power > drills, lights or whatever (whatever being stuff that doesn't require > AC, of course)? I never bought one, but probably someone here did. > > They didn't tell you in the ads, but I think you'd have had to rev the > engine considerably to get full mains voltage. >The ones I had seen from JC Whitney years ago came with a manual throttle cable that would override the car's accelerator pedal so you could set (screaming) high idle. You would increase RPMs until an indicator lamp came on... Also included a regulator which substituted for the original external regulator and basically connected output to field (assuming a grounded field on other end) and chopped the field when desired voltage was reached. Needed a transfer switch to disconnect the battery and alternator output was connected to a power outlet. Output was 120V but since power was taken from an otherwise unmodified alternator, DC. Field winding was also seeing something like 40V so windings and brushes tended to have short lives. That was back in the day when alternators used (generally) 200 PIV or higher diodes. These days, I believe that they use much lower voltage units with lower conduction losses. If your variable speed drill used a triac control (which all did at the time), would just run at full speed. Only sane way to do this today is to use an inverter to get 120V (and AC to boot). Oppie
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Jun 19, 8:03�pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >> >> news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: >> >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >> >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >> > >below the battery voltage. >> >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvoltage >> > spikes? >> >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. � I am >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. �There are probably >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. >> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car than any >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it or >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want our >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of charging >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not >> working. > >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with >battery terminal, as the other poster said. I just don't buy the idea >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. When i >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. So, >i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I >don't claim to know everything about charging.You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"Oppie" <Oppie@127.0.0.1> wrote in news:BXHLp.11348$x11.10347@newsfe09.iad:> "Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message > news:qobuv6himohhn80unodrhb9mklprk9tjao@4ax.com... >> You don't remember those boxes (as see on TV) that provided full >> battery voltage on the field coils to provide 120VAC RMS to power >> drills, lights or whatever (whatever being stuff that doesn't require >> AC, of course)? I never bought one, but probably someone here did. >> >> They didn't tell you in the ads, but I think you'd have had to rev >> the engine considerably to get full mains voltage. >> > > The ones I had seen from JC Whitney years ago came with a manual > throttle cable that would override the car's accelerator pedal so you > could set (screaming) high idle. You would increase RPMs until an > indicator lamp came on... Also included a regulator which substituted > for the original external regulator and basically connected output to > field (assuming a grounded field on other end) and chopped the field > when desired voltage was reached. Needed a transfer switch to > disconnect the battery and alternator output was connected to a power > outlet. Output was 120V but since power was taken from an otherwise > unmodified alternator, DC.Pulsating DC.(but still unhealthy for transformers.)> Field winding was also seeing something > like 40V so windings and brushes tended to have short lives. > > That was back in the day when alternators used (generally) 200 PIV or > higher diodes. These days, I believe that they use much lower voltage > units with lower conduction losses.perhaps Schottky diodes? lower PIV but handle high currents.> > If your variable speed drill used a triac control (which all did at > the time), would just run at full speed. > > Only sane way to do this today is to use an inverter to get 120V (and > AC to boot). > Oppie > >You might get 120 volts AC from a modified car alternator,but it's not going to be 50-60 Hz AC. Anything using a transformer will overheat or burn up. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:12:45 -0500, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:>"Oppie" <Oppie@127.0.0.1> wrote in >news:BXHLp.11348$x11.10347@newsfe09.iad: > >> "Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message >> news:qobuv6himohhn80unodrhb9mklprk9tjao@4ax.com... >>> You don't remember those boxes (as see on TV) that provided full >>> battery voltage on the field coils to provide 120VAC RMS to power >>> drills, lights or whatever (whatever being stuff that doesn't require >>> AC, of course)? I never bought one, but probably someone here did. >>> >>> They didn't tell you in the ads, but I think you'd have had to rev >>> the engine considerably to get full mains voltage. >>> >> >> The ones I had seen from JC Whitney years ago came with a manual >> throttle cable that would override the car's accelerator pedal so you >> could set (screaming) high idle. You would increase RPMs until an >> indicator lamp came on... Also included a regulator which substituted >> for the original external regulator and basically connected output to >> field (assuming a grounded field on other end) and chopped the field >> when desired voltage was reached. Needed a transfer switch to >> disconnect the battery and alternator output was connected to a power >> outlet. Output was 120V but since power was taken from an otherwise >> unmodified alternator, DC. > >Pulsating DC.(but still unhealthy for transformers.) > >> Field winding was also seeing something >> like 40V so windings and brushes tended to have short lives. >> >> That was back in the day when alternators used (generally) 200 PIV or >> higher diodes. These days, I believe that they use much lower voltage >> units with lower conduction losses. > >perhaps Schottky diodes? lower PIV but handle high currents. >> >> If your variable speed drill used a triac control (which all did at >> the time), would just run at full speed. >> >> Only sane way to do this today is to use an inverter to get 120V (and >> AC to boot). >> Oppie >> >> > >You might get 120 volts AC from a modified car alternator,but it's not >going to be 50-60 Hz AC. >Anything using a transformer will overheat or burn up."Standard" alternator is 3-phase, full-wave rectified. I have heard of people re-winding them to get 120VAC. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
On Jun 20, 7:33=A0am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- Web-Site.com> wrote:> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Jun 19, 8:03=A0pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: > >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com..=.> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > > >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: > > >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =3DA0Alternator dio=des> >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output i=s> >> > >below the battery voltage. > > >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvolt=age> >> > spikes? > > >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. =A0 I am > >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. =A0There are probab=ly> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. > > >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car th=an any> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it =or> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want ou=r> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of char=ging> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not > >> working. > > >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > >battery terminal, as the other poster said. =A0I just don't buy the idea > >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. =A0When i > >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. =A0So, > >i am getting too little power, not too much. =A0Engineering is about > >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. =A0I > >don't claim to know everything about charging. > > You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into the load?
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
linnix wrote:> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > >>linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >> >> >>>>Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes >>>>aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >>> >>>I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >>>below the battery voltage. >> >>And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvoltage spikes? >> > > > Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. I am > having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. There are probably > 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. >You still don't get it.. Jamie
Reply by ●June 20, 20112011-06-20
"linnix" <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message news:ec372858-e647-4b7a-9be7-5c4c27079245@z15g2000prn.googlegroups.com... On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- Web-Site.com> wrote:> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Jun 19, 8:03 pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: > >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... > >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > > >> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: > > >> > >> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes > >> > >> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >> > >I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is > >> > >below the battery voltage. > > >> > And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with > >> > overvoltage > >> > spikes? > > >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. I am > >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. There are probably > >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. > > >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car > >> than any > >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it > >> or > >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want our > >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of > >> charging > >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not > >> working. > > >I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > >battery terminal, as the other poster said. I just don't buy the idea > >of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. When i > >disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. So, > >i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about > >trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I > >don't claim to know everything about charging. > > You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into the load? Are you really that stupid? Or just imitating skyturd?
