On 6/20/2011 5:43 PM, linnix wrote:> On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- > Web-Site.com> wrote: >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >> > > So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into > the load?Wow, I can't believe that you are so dense. Everyone tells you what the deal is and you continue to not believe them. That makes you a troll, not someone looking for information as you were informed of the issues long ago. The answer is yes, for a very brief (perhaps nanoseconds) period of time. Oh, and BTW, 12,000 watts is only ten times what a typical alternator is designed to put out, so that's not much over... -- I'm never going to grow up.
Alternator problem
Started by ●June 18, 2011
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
On Jun 21, 4:00=A0am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:> On 6/20/2011 5:43 PM, linnix wrote: > > > On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- > > Web-Site.com> =A0wrote: > >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. > > > So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into > > the load? > > Wow, I can't believe that you are so dense. Everyone tells you what the > deal is and you continue to not believe them. That makes you a troll, > not someone looking for information as you were informed of the issues > long ago.I believe it's possible, but not in my test case. Maxwell told me not to worry.> > The answer is yes, for a very brief (perhaps nanoseconds) period of > time. Oh, and BTW, 12,000 watts is only ten times what a typical > alternator is designed to put out, so that's not much over...And how much of that 12,000 watts can get pass the 0.5 ohm head lights?
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:58:52 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Jun 21, 4:00�am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote: >> On 6/20/2011 5:43 PM, linnix wrote: >> >> > On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >> > Web-Site.com> �wrote: >> >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. >> >> > So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W into >> > the load? >> >> Wow, I can't believe that you are so dense. Everyone tells you what the >> deal is and you continue to not believe them. That makes you a troll, >> not someone looking for information as you were informed of the issues >> long ago. > >I believe it's possible, but not in my test case. Maxwell told me not >to worry. > >> >> The answer is yes, for a very brief (perhaps nanoseconds) period of >> time. Oh, and BTW, 12,000 watts is only ten times what a typical >> alternator is designed to put out, so that's not much over... > >And how much of that 12,000 watts can get pass the 0.5 ohm head >lights?Wired, of course, with a harness with no inductance ;-) I don't know how the Lexus regulator is designed, but, scratching my butt, I remember that one of my designs wouldn't draw field current below about 10 volts, automatically shutting down that load during cranking. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
On Jun 21, 9:44=A0am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- Web-Site.com> wrote:> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:58:52 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Jun 21, 4:00 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote: > >> On 6/20/2011 5:43 PM, linnix wrote: > > >> > On Jun 20, 7:33 am, Jim Thompson<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-M=y-> >> > Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> >> You are rapidly proving you don't understand alternators. > > >> > So, you are saying the atlernator is dumping 400V * 30A or 12000W in=to> >> > the load? > > >> Wow, I can't believe that you are so dense. Everyone tells you what th=e> >> deal is and you continue to not believe them. That makes you a troll, > >> not someone looking for information as you were informed of the issues > >> long ago. > > >I believe it's possible, but not in my test case. =A0Maxwell told me not > >to worry. > > >> The answer is yes, for a very brief (perhaps nanoseconds) period of > >> time. Oh, and BTW, 12,000 watts is only ten times what a typical > >> alternator is designed to put out, so that's not much over... > > >And how much of that 12,000 watts can get pass the 0.5 ohm head > >lights? > > Wired, of course, with a harness with no inductance ;-)And almost no resistance from the head lights, if that happens. However, in my idle test, there was no significant change in load, no collapsing magnetic field and no massive quantum jumps in electrons.
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
linnix wrote:> On Jun 19, 8:03 pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >> >> news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com... >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: >> >>> linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: >>>>> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =A0Alternator diodes >>>>> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. >>>> I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is >>>> below the battery voltage. >>> And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvoltage >>> spikes?Takes ONE spike. Count 'em ONE!!! Shall I say it again? ONE!!!>> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights.You're mistaken here...read below I am>> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. There are probably >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery."Probably" means nothing when you're troubleshooting something that ain't workin' right. MEASURE IT!! Your system is "probably working right" except if it ain't. I don't have anything newer than 1990, but I think 30A at 700 RPM is optimistic.>> >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car than any >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it or >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want our >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of charging >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not >> working. > > I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > battery terminal, as the other poster said. I just don't buy the idea > of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load.http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf When i> disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. So, > i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about > trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I > don't claim to know everything about charging.I don't know why I bother, 'cause you ain't listening...but... The output of an alternator is AC. The rectifiers produce a waveform that has a DC component, but also has an AC component that tracks the peak value of the alternator phases. The regulator "regulates" the peak voltage. So, the RMS voltage that determines the intensity of your headlights will be lower than the setpoint of the regulator. Dimming of the headlights is the EXPECTED result of removing the battery. Blowing up some sensitive electronics is another possible result of your experiment. Engineering is about examining the results of your trial using proper equipment and sound theoretical basics. Drawing the proper conclusion is CRITICAL to making progress. You ain't gettin' nowhere until you verify that you don't have the slipping pulley problem and MEASURE the current load and the alternator output.
Reply by ●June 21, 20112011-06-21
On Jun 21, 5:02=A0pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > On Jun 19, 8:03 pm, "hifi-tek" <t.hoeh...@insightbb.com> wrote: > >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > >>news:a100c3e1-64aa-4623-a11f-674f30f6d722@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com..=.> >> On Jun 19, 7:34 pm, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote: > > >>> linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> writes: > >>>>> Don't run the alternator without the battery. =3DA0Alternator diode=s> >>>>> aren't rated 400V PIV for no reason. > >>>> I only disconnect it briefly to verify that the alternator output is > >>>> below the battery voltage. > >>> And how many milliseconds does it take to toast an ECU with overvolta=ge> >>> spikes? > > Takes ONE spike. =A0Count 'em ONE!!! Shall I say it again? =A0ONE!!!But there has to be a reason for the spike, not magic.> > >> Battery acts as a current sink, and so does the head lights. > > You're mistaken here...read below > > =A0 =A0 I am > > >> having problem with undervoltage, not overvoltage. =A0There are probab=ly> >> 20A to 30A current sink even without the battery. > > "Probably" means nothing when you're troubleshooting something that ain't > workin' right. MEASURE IT!! =A0Your system is "probably working right" > except if it ain't.The head lights will take at least 20A.> > I don't have anything newer than 1990, but I think 30A at 700 RPM > is optimistic. > > > > >> You sound like you know a lot more about this problem with this car th=an any> >> of us do. I recommend doing anything you like until you either fix it =or> >> screw it up to the point where it won't run anymore. You don't want ou=r> >> opinions or advice, you want to impress us with your knowledge of char=ging> >> systems. Sorry, we're not impressed, your charging system still is not > >> working. > > > I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with > > battery terminal, as the other poster said. =A0I just don't buy the ide=a> > of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. > > http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf >Disconnecting a 14V running system would probably spike it up to 20V to 30V. Turning off the headlights without the battery would probably spike it up to 120V as stated. But that not what happened. The Lexus was running at 12V as if the alternator was not there.> =A0 When i > > > disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. =A0So, > > i am getting too little power, not too much. =A0Engineering is about > > trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. =A0I > > don't claim to know everything about charging. > > I don't know why I bother, 'cause you ain't listening...but... > The output of an alternator is AC. =A0The rectifiers produce a waveform > that has a DC component, but also has an AC component that > tracks the peak value of the alternator phases. > The regulator "regulates" the peak voltage. =A0So, the RMS voltage that > determines the intensity of your headlights will be lower than > the setpoint of the regulator. =A0Dimming of the headlights is the > EXPECTED result of removing the battery. > Blowing up some sensitive electronics is another possible > result of your experiment.I fully expect the peak to the 70% above RMS. The RMS has to be high enough to charge the battery on average and have the regulator take care of the excess. At idle, the Lexus RMS is around 9V, so it was draining rather than charging. Both my Corolla and Aerostar output a soild 14V at idle.> > Engineering is about examining the results of your trial using > proper equipment and sound theoretical basics. =A0Drawing the proper > conclusion is CRITICAL to making progress.Yes, i am trying to understand where is that magical voltage spike coming from.> > You ain't gettin' nowhere until you verify that you don't have > the slipping pulley problem and MEASURE the current load and the > alternator output.The pulley is tight and running properly above 1000RPM.
Reply by ●June 22, 20112011-06-22
On 6/21/2011 10:55 PM, linnix wrote:> > But there has to be a reason for the spike, not magic. > >>> > The head lights will take at least 20A. > >> >> I don't have anything newer than 1990, but I think 30A at 700 RPM >> is optimistic. >> >> >> >> >>> I follow reasonable suggestions, like grounding the alternator with >>> battery terminal, as the other poster said. I just don't buy the idea >>> of hundreds of volt surging into 20A to 30A of load. >> >> http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf >> > > Disconnecting a 14V running system would probably spike it up to 20V > to 30V. Turning off the headlights without the battery would > probably spike it up to 120V as stated. But that not what happened. > The Lexus was running at 12V as if the alternator was not there. > >> When i >> >>> disconnected the battery, the head light dimmed, not brightened. So, >>> i am getting too little power, not too much. Engineering is about >>> trials and errors, and eliminating the unknowns, within reasons. I >>> don't claim to know everything about charging. >> >> I don't know why I bother, 'cause you ain't listening...but... >> The output of an alternator is AC. The rectifiers produce a waveform >> that has a DC component, but also has an AC component that >> tracks the peak value of the alternator phases. >> The regulator "regulates" the peak voltage. So, the RMS voltage that >> determines the intensity of your headlights will be lower than >> the setpoint of the regulator. Dimming of the headlights is the >> EXPECTED result of removing the battery. >> Blowing up some sensitive electronics is another possible >> result of your experiment. > > I fully expect the peak to the 70% above RMS. The RMS has to be high > enough to charge the battery on average and have the regulator take > care of the excess. At idle, the Lexus RMS is around 9V, so it was > draining rather than charging. Both my Corolla and Aerostar output a > soild 14V at idle. > >> >> Engineering is about examining the results of your trial using >> proper equipment and sound theoretical basics. Drawing the proper >> conclusion is CRITICAL to making progress. > > Yes, i am trying to understand where is that magical voltage spike > coming from. > >> >> You ain't gettin' nowhere until you verify that you don't have >> the slipping pulley problem and MEASURE the current load and the >> alternator output. > > The pulley is tight and running properly above 1000RPM.Frickin' troll... -- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 22, 20112011-06-22
linnix wrote: <snip>> > > Yes, i am trying to understand where is that magical voltage spike > coming from. >L*dI/dT where I is whatever current was flowing into the battery when it was disconnected. Ed
Reply by ●June 22, 20112011-06-22
On Jun 22, 3:52=A0pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > Yes, i am trying to understand where is that magical voltage spike > > coming from. > > L*dI/dT =A0where I is whatever current was flowing into the battery > when it was disconnected. > > EdThe load voltage dropped from 12V to 9V, so current was flowing out of the battery when connected.
Reply by ●June 22, 20112011-06-22
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Jun 22, 3:52�pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote: >> linnix wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> >> >> > Yes, i am trying to understand where is that magical voltage spike >> > coming from. >> >> L*dI/dT �where I is whatever current was flowing into the battery >> when it was disconnected. >> >> Ed > >The load voltage dropped from 12V to 9V, so current was flowing out of >the battery when connected.Bull shit, troll. Will you PLEASE just let this thread die. Jim
