On Jun 18, 6:37=A0pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > On Jun 18, 5:53 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- > > Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... > >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. =A0The problem is that the OEM > >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At > >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient t=o> >>> charge the battery. =A0 At high speed, it does put out 14V. =A0People > >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > >>> smaller one. =A0I found a 45mm pulley that might work. =A0But would t=hat> >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or > >>> worst? > >> How are you measuring this voltage? =A0Should be with battery and > >> regulator attached. > > > With the battery disconnected. =A0The battery is 12.4V. =A0Regulator is > > build-in the alternator. =A0Just replaced the alternator (wasn't the > > problem). > > >> Keep in mind that an alternator is basically a current-controlled > >> current source. > > >> Maybe you have a regulator or battery problem? =A0Or an accessory > >> sucking more current than it should? > > > People (web search) have reported same problem. =A0It's a known design > > issue. > > I know this is a silly question but, "what does the dealer's repair shop > say about it?" > > I'd recommend NOT running the alternator disconnected from the battery. > inductor, voltage spikes, electronic regulator... you get the point.I only disconnect the battery for the test. Battery charged w my Corolla, which does not have this problem. My corolla is still running the battery swapped out of her Lexus. Idle (700RPM): 12.4V w battery. 8V to 10V w/o. normal(2000RPM): 14V w battery.> > Changing the pulley sounds like a bad idea. =A0It's already running prett=y> fast at cruising speed. > > Another silly question. =A0You're attacking a symptom. =A0What's the > PROBLEM you're trying to solve?Dead batteries. Engine stalling. I think the problem is that the idle speed is very low (and quiet), and she does not want me to increase the idle speed (and noise).
Alternator problem
Started by ●June 18, 2011
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
"linnix" <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message news:e40b8f00-87f7-422e-877d-9b53d94de4bc@z15g2000prn.googlegroups.com... On Jun 18, 6:37 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > On Jun 18, 5:53 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- > > Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... > >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM > >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At > >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to > >>> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People > >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > >>> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that > >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or > >>> worst? > >> How are you measuring this voltage? Should be with battery and > >> regulator attached. > > > With the battery disconnected. The battery is 12.4V. Regulator is > > build-in the alternator. Just replaced the alternator (wasn't the > > problem). > > >> Keep in mind that an alternator is basically a current-controlled > >> current source. > > >> Maybe you have a regulator or battery problem? Or an accessory > >> sucking more current than it should? > > > People (web search) have reported same problem. It's a known design > > issue. > > I know this is a silly question but, "what does the dealer's repair shop > say about it?" > > I'd recommend NOT running the alternator disconnected from the battery. > inductor, voltage spikes, electronic regulator... you get the point.I only disconnect the battery for the test. Battery charged w my Corolla, which does not have this problem. My corolla is still running the battery swapped out of her Lexus. Idle (700RPM): 12.4V w battery. 8V to 10V w/o. normal(2000RPM): 14V w battery.> > Changing the pulley sounds like a bad idea. It's already running pretty > fast at cruising speed. > > Another silly question. You're attacking a symptom. What's the > PROBLEM you're trying to solve?Dead batteries. Engine stalling. I think the problem is that the idle speed is very low (and quiet), and she does not want me to increase the idle speed (and noise). 700 RPM idle speed is about right for the ES300. Are you having any problems with overheating at low speeds? A bad (slipping) crank pulley would also result in lowered water pump speed. Have the alternator bench checked and if ok then it must be low alternator speed at idle, or an accessory pulling too much current. A defective blower motor will pull a lot more current than normal. You tend to run the blower at higher speeds when using the A/C. Have someone check the crank pulley for separation, I think you'll find your problem there.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
Spehro Pefhany wrote:> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), the renowned linnix > <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >> >> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >> worst? > > There's apparently an issue with the ES300 that involves internal > separation of the harmonic balancer, causing slippage at low RPM > (alternator torque increases at low RPM). > > > Best regards, > Spehro PefhanyNot exactly sure how this is put together, but if you've got two chunks of metal slipping, it oughta be getting HOT and be easy to confirm.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:20:23 -0700, the renowned mike <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote:>Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), the renowned linnix >> <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >>> >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >>> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >>> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >>> worst? >> >> There's apparently an issue with the ES300 that involves internal >> separation of the harmonic balancer, causing slippage at low RPM >> (alternator torque increases at low RPM). >> >> >> Best regards, >> Spehro Pefhany > >Not exactly sure how this is put together, but if you've got two chunks of >metal slipping, it oughta be getting HOT and be easy to confirm.Or put a grease pencil mark across the inside and outside sections and see if it stays lined up. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On Jun 19, 4:03=A0am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:> On Jun 18, 6:37=A0pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > linnix wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 5:53 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-M=y-> > > Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... > > >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. =A0The problem is that the OE=M> > >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. A=t> > >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient=to> > >>> charge the battery. =A0 At high speed, it does put out 14V. =A0Peop=le> > >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > > >>> smaller one. =A0I found a 45mm pulley that might work. =A0But would=that> > >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, =or> > >>> worst? > > >> How are you measuring this voltage? =A0Should be with battery and > > >> regulator attached. > > > > With the battery disconnected. =A0The battery is 12.4V. =A0Regulator =is> > > build-in the alternator. =A0Just replaced the alternator (wasn't the > > > problem). > > > >> Keep in mind that an alternator is basically a current-controlled > > >> current source. > > > >> Maybe you have a regulator or battery problem? =A0Or an accessory > > >> sucking more current than it should? > > > > People (web search) have reported same problem. =A0It's a known desig=n> > > issue. > > > I know this is a silly question but, "what does the dealer's repair sho=p> > say about it?" > > > I'd recommend NOT running the alternator disconnected from the battery. > > inductor, voltage spikes, electronic regulator... you get the point. > > I only disconnect the battery for the test. > > Battery charged w my Corolla, which does not have this problem. =A0My > corolla is still running the battery swapped out of her Lexus. > > Idle (700RPM): 12.4V w battery. 8V to 10V w/o. > normal(2000RPM): 14V w battery. > > > > > Changing the pulley sounds like a bad idea. =A0It's already running pre=tty> > fast at cruising speed. > > > Another silly question. =A0You're attacking a symptom. =A0What's the > > PROBLEM you're trying to solve? > > Dead batteries. =A0Engine stalling. > > I think the problem is that the idle speed is very low (and quiet), > and she does not want me to increase the idle speed (and noise).If that's the symptom, then you're not just lacking charge at idle, you're lacking adequate charge at driving speeds too. For half a century cars produced no charge at idle, battery capacity was more than enough to deal with that. Electrical load is greater today, but not so much so that a battery cant support the idle times. I'd check you've got firm clean unoxidised connections, but presumably you've already done that. If not it might get you a trickle charge at idle, and charging at other speeds too. (Test with battery connected.) If not, best replace or repair the alternator. A smaller pulley probably wouldnt do it, seeing as you've got insufficient charging over the whoel range of driving speeds. And at full engine revs, the alt would be liable to severe damage. NT
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On 6/18/2011 8:41 PM, linnix wrote:> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... > > I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM > alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At > idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to > charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People > suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that > cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or > worst?Fix the problem with the alternator, don't patch or modify the system in an attempt to work around the problem. It could be a defective alternator, (you say replacements, how many, and from what source?) or regulator, battery, or wiring. Also you cannot measure 8 to 10 volts on the alternator! The battery is 12 volts, so that is the minimum you'd measure. If you are seeing 8 to 10 volts with the system connected properly and engine idling, fix the problem. -- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On 6/18/2011 8:59 PM, linnix wrote:> On Jun 18, 5:53 pm, Jim Thompson<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- > Web-Site.com> wrote: >> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>> I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >> >>> I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >>> alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >>> idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >>> charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >>> suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >>> smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >>> cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >>> worst? >> >> How are you measuring this voltage? Should be with battery and >> regulator attached. > > With the battery disconnected.Never, ever disconnect the battery with the engine running.> The battery is 12.4V. Regulator is > build-in the alternator. Just replaced the alternator (wasn't the > problem).Or the second alternator you got was also defective. That happens.> >> >> Keep in mind that an alternator is basically a current-controlled >> current source. >> >> Maybe you have a regulator or battery problem? Or an accessory >> sucking more current than it should? > > People (web search) have reported same problem. It's a known design > issue.-- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On 6/18/2011 9:20 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:> > Whoa! I just realized what you said... without battery. Where's it > deriving field current ?:-) > > Certainly it can't be a PM-type. > > ...Jim ThompsonPossibly he's blown the regulator (or something else) by disconnecting the battery while running anyway. -- I'm never going to grow up.
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
linnix wrote:> On Jun 18, 6:37 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>linnix wrote: >> >>>On Jun 18, 5:53 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@On-My- >>>Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:41:07 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >>>><m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>>> >>>>>I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... >>>>>I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. The problem is that the OEM >>>>>alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At >>>>>idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to >>>>>charge the battery. At high speed, it does put out 14V. People >>>>>suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a >>>>>smaller one. I found a 45mm pulley that might work. But would that >>>>>cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or >>>>>worst? >>>> >>>>How are you measuring this voltage? Should be with battery and >>>>regulator attached. >> >>>With the battery disconnected. The battery is 12.4V. Regulator is >>>build-in the alternator. Just replaced the alternator (wasn't the >>>problem). >> >>>>Keep in mind that an alternator is basically a current-controlled >>>>current source. >> >>>>Maybe you have a regulator or battery problem? Or an accessory >>>>sucking more current than it should? >> >>>People (web search) have reported same problem. It's a known design >>>issue. >> >>I know this is a silly question but, "what does the dealer's repair shop >>say about it?" >> >>I'd recommend NOT running the alternator disconnected from the battery. >>inductor, voltage spikes, electronic regulator... you get the point. > > > I only disconnect the battery for the test. > > Battery charged w my Corolla, which does not have this problem. My > corolla is still running the battery swapped out of her Lexus. > > Idle (700RPM): 12.4V w battery. 8V to 10V w/o. > normal(2000RPM): 14V w battery. > > >>Changing the pulley sounds like a bad idea. It's already running pretty >>fast at cruising speed. >> >>Another silly question. You're attacking a symptom. What's the >>PROBLEM you're trying to solve? > > > Dead batteries. Engine stalling. > > I think the problem is that the idle speed is very low (and quiet), > and she does not want me to increase the idle speed (and noise).You never disconnect the battery from a running alternator..!! You'll get incorrect over all readings, on top of wild voltages appearing in your system.. Well, its your vehicle I guess, do what ever damage you like Jamie
Reply by ●June 19, 20112011-06-19
On Jun 19, 7:35=A0am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:> On 6/18/2011 8:41 PM, linnix wrote: > > > I know many engineers here work on cars, so ... > > > I am debugging my wife's Lexus ES300. =A0The problem is that the OEM > > alternators (original and replacements) are not charging at idle. At > > idle speed, the alternator put out 8V to 10V, which is insufficient to > > charge the battery. =A0 At high speed, it does put out 14V. =A0People > > suggested speeding it up by changing the front pulley (65mm) to a > > smaller one. =A0I found a 45mm pulley that might work. =A0But would tha=t> > cause problem at high speed, including burning out the alternator, or > > worst? > > Fix the problem with the alternator, don't patch or modify the system in > an attempt to work around the problem. > > It could be a defective alternator, (you say replacements, how many, and > from what source?) or regulator, battery, or wiring. Also you cannot > measure 8 to 10 volts on the alternator! The battery is 12 volts, so > that is the minimum you'd measure. If you are seeing 8 to 10 volts with > the system connected properly and engine idling, fix the problem. > > -- > I'm never going to grow up.The alternator was never outputing more than 10V, so how can it blows the regulator? I have loose battery connections more than once, with car/alternator that are still running. Other loads on the system are enough to clamp down the output, to avoid serious damages. You guys never have loose battery connections? According to this "Car Improvement" site, i just need "more power!!!". The 3000W machine can output 3 times more power than the OEM one. More than enough to power the electric seat warmers, and perhaps a fridge and microwave as well. https://www.dcpowerinc.com/articles/truth-about-idle
