onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 23.06.18 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > > > >On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: > > >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y > > >> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: > > >> > > >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> > > >>> > > >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> > > >> > > >> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using > > >> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people > > >> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which > > >is pretty convenient. > > That's not practical for a lot of people. > > > > I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under > > 10% of their miles from battery power. > > > > > >Even for cars with engines, fully mechanical transmissions are so 20th > > >century. Like boiler pre-heaters once the hardware is economical enough > > >to recapture waste energy and feed it back into the system, there's > > >little reason no to include it > > There is sadly no mechanical equivalent of a switching regulator. > > Gears are fixed ratios and variable ratio systems are, so far, all > > inefficient or plain bad. CVTs are often lemons. > Why not tap into the ABS sensor? I just need a very rough switching between 168V and 392V.what are you on about??
Two sides of a coin
Started by ●August 15, 2023
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 2:13:32 PM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 23.06.18 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > > > > > >On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y > > > >> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> > > > >>> > > > >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> > > > >> > > > >> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using > > > >> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people > > > >> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which > > > >is pretty convenient. > > > That's not practical for a lot of people. > > > > > > I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under > > > 10% of their miles from battery power. > > > > > > > >Even for cars with engines, fully mechanical transmissions are so 20th > > > >century. Like boiler pre-heaters once the hardware is economical enough > > > >to recapture waste energy and feed it back into the system, there's > > > >little reason no to include it > > > There is sadly no mechanical equivalent of a switching regulator. > > > Gears are fixed ratios and variable ratio systems are, so far, all > > > inefficient or plain bad. CVTs are often lemons. > > Why not tap into the ABS sensor? I just need a very rough switching between 168V and 392V. > what are you on about??I need a switching signal while the car is moving, to even out the energy storages.
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 2023-08-16 23:13, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 23.06.18 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:[...]>> Why not tap into the ABS sensor? I just need a very rough switching between 168V and 392V. > > what are you on about?? >He's just keeping a number of nominally serious people busy with one crazy suggestion after another. He knows very well what he is doing. It's pathetic that people keep reacting to it. Put him in your killfile and be done with it! Jeroen Belleman
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 4:30 PM, John Larkin wrote:>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the >> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the >> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 >> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power >> for cruising. >> >> Joe Gwinn > > The 10% I saw was for a plug-in hybrid, that's supposed to use battery > power for short trips. One plugin averaged 8% of its miles electric, a > BMW or something. > > Maybe rich people buy plug-in hybrids for eco status but don't bother > to charge them in real life. >A plug-in hybrid is a difficult vehicle to three-legged-stool balance, to make the battery and engine both first-class citizens. The tendency is to build a predominantly gas car with a tacked-on battery power train, or like the BMW i3, a predominantly EV with a tacked on motorcycle engine. It's small market segment to begin with, most PHEVs don't sell large numbers. The Chevy Volt was both the best selling PHEV and EV in general in America for many years (until displaced by the Model 3 on the latter front) in large part because it got the balance right, not a trivial engineering task.
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 6:11 PM, bitrex wrote:> On 8/16/2023 4:30 PM, John Larkin wrote: > >>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the >>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the >>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 >>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power >>> for cruising. >>> >>> Joe Gwinn >> >> The 10% I saw was for a plug-in hybrid, that's supposed to use battery >> power for short trips. One plugin averaged 8% of its miles electric, a >> BMW or something. >> >> Maybe rich people buy plug-in hybrids for eco status but don't bother >> to charge them in real life. >> > > A plug-in hybrid is a difficult vehicle to three-legged-stool balance, > to make the battery and engine both first-class citizens.Or rather to make the electrical powertrain and the ICE powertrain both first-class citizens
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 12:01:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: >> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the >> > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the >> > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 >> > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power >> > for cruising. >> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need >> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a >> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the >> driver! >> >> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* >> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. > >it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road >so by a factor of ~10?I don't know the exact numbers, but do know that it's at least a factor of three, and ten is certainly plausible in some scenarios. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 6:25 PM, bitrex wrote:> On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin >> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y >>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> >>>>> >>>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using >>>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people >>>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which >>>> is pretty convenient. >>> >>> That's not practical for a lot of people. >>> >>> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under >>> 10% of their miles from battery power. >> >> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the >> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the >> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 >> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power >> for cruising. >> >> Joe Gwinn >> > > The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the > materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric > drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and > there's not a lot of demand to begin with. > > There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution > space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and > mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups, > etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their > existence.Market forces don't allow their existence, rather
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin > <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >> >>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y >>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> >>>>> >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> >>>> >>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using >>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people >>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which >>> is pretty convenient. >> >> That's not practical for a lot of people. >> >> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under >> 10% of their miles from battery power. > > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power > for cruising. > > Joe Gwinn >The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and there's not a lot of demand to begin with. There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups, etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their existence.
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 00.25.15 UTC+2 skrev bitrex:> On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin > > <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > >> > >>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y > >>>> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> > >>>>> > >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> > >>>> > >>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using > >>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people > >>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which > >>> is pretty convenient. > >> > >> That's not practical for a lot of people. > >> > >> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under > >> 10% of their miles from battery power. > > > > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the > > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the > > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 > > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power > > for cruising. > > > > Joe Gwinn > > > The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the > materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric > drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and > there's not a lot of demand to begin with. > > There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution > space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and > mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups, > etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their > existence.https://jalopnik.com/driving-audis-dakar-tackling-electric-truck-the-rs-q-e-1848891899
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: >> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: >>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: >>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the >>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the >>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 >>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power >>>>> for cruising. >>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need >>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a >>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the >>>> driver! >>>> >>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* >>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. >>> >>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road >>> so by a factor of ~10? >> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat. >> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need >> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc. > > sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on averageSo, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few dozen HP?>> I spent 20 minutes in traffic, last week, traveling >> half a mile (some idiot had closed 2 of 3 travel lanes during >> "rush hour"). The car indicated I was getting like 3MPG. >> When I broke free of the construction area, that immediately >> climbed to ~25MPG for the remaining mile of my trip.] > > perfect for an EV or hybridYeah -- an electric hummer. Where's the savings there? In an SUV, you're still driving "a small car", looking at the bumpers of the jacked up pickup trucks in front of you. People aren't one-issue buyers. If I want to save the planet, I'll walk, more. (I can address all of my shopping needs on foot, pushing a cart full of items back home along the sidewalk. I used to walk to the Post Office, 2.5mi each way; the library, a similar distance; MD at 3 mi -- and, passing many stores along either of these routes). But, I'm not keen on spending all of that time "traveling" especially without "climate controls". I could adopt a small wheeled vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle) to overcome the time loss. But, still suffer from being exposed to the elements. A "smart car" -- or even a "typical car" -- would be lost among the oversized vehicles around you (this was SWMBO's prime motivation for upsizing to an SUV). We looked at ~30 different vehicles -- including hybrids and BEVs when she wanted a new ride. The EVs were the first to fail to make the cut. (We particularly noted how tiny they are in traffic and how quickly our friends dumped theirs for larger vehicles -- an electric mustang and an electric hummer. Gotta wonder how much they're "saving the planet"!) She regrets not getting a *larger* SUV. Neither of us think we've "missed out" by avoiding the electrics. [I'm currently looking for another "classic" car that I can slip a big block 454 into and try out some control algorithms that a colleague and I have been mulling over. Cars should be *fun* to drive and maintain... what do you buy for your EV? An air freshener??]
