On 8/17/2023 4:10 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.33.05 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>>>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>>>> dozen HP?
>>>
>>> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
>>> of their peak power
>> But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
>
> when you want to accelerate to high way speeds in a reasonable time it is
> and with an electric motor being capable of short term high peak power doesn't ruin
> the efficiency at low power like it does on a combustion engine
That's because of the *way* you want to accelerate.
In NYC, a cab driver isn't going to be accelerating to high speed
coming off a traffic light. Here, OTOH, the speed limit between
lights is 45 -- meaning 55MPH. And, you've got a mile before the
next one so a big incentive to take advantage of that speed.
There's nothing -- in "nature" -- that requires that performance
just like nothing requires me to drive 4000 pounds of vehicle to
the post office to check my box. OTOH, there are times when
I want to lug 1000+ pounds of kit from point A to point B
and would be really annoyed if I had to do that in several trips!
It takes me almost a month to go through a full tank of gas.
Yet, I'd *not* want a smaller tank because of those times when I
may want to do a month of driving in a weekend (e.g., going to an
art exhibit in Feenigs will use almost a full tank of gas in a *day*).
So, I have to drive a vehicle that addresses ALL of these potential
usage types -- because I don't want to have to own additional vehicles
for specific use cases.
But, there is nothing REQUIRING that to be a condition for
life going forward. Personal situations can change (we have
friends who NEVER drive as they live in a "catered" environment
and just keep their vehicles "in case"). And, society can
change the way it accommodates people to encourage or discourage
behaviors that they (society) consider harmful.
E.g., I'd much rather get on a high speed rail to get to
feenigs without having to *drive* myself -- esp if there was
a service at the far end that would get me the last few miles
to my specific destination.
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●August 17, 20232023-08-17
fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.52.09 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 15:32:45 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> >>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> >>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> >>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
> >>>>>>>> for cruising.
> >>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
> >>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
> >>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
> >>>>>>> driver!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
> >>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
> >>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
> >>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
> >>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
> >>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
> >>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
> >>> dozen HP?
> >>
> >> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
> >> of their peak power
> >
> >But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
> >
> There's a limited amount of time that you can accelerate at 0.3 G's.
yep, and some EVs can do +1G
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●August 17, 20232023-08-17
fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.33.05 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> >>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> >>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> >>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
> >>>>>>> for cruising.
> >>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
> >>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
> >>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
> >>>>>> driver!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
> >>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
> >>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
> >>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
> >>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
> >>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
> >>>
> >>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
> >> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
> >> dozen HP?
> >
> > no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
> > of their peak power
> But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
when you want to accelerate to high way speeds in a reasonable time it is
and with an electric motor being capable of short term high peak power doesn't ruin
the efficiency at low power like it does on a combustion engine
Reply by John Larkin●August 17, 20232023-08-17
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 15:32:45 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>>
>>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>>> dozen HP?
>>
>> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
>> of their peak power
>
>But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
>
There's a limited amount of time that you can accelerate at 0.3 G's.
Reply by Don Y●August 17, 20232023-08-17
On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>
>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>> dozen HP?
>
> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
> of their peak power
But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●August 17, 20232023-08-17
torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> >>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> >>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> >>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
> >>>>> for cruising.
> >>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
> >>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
> >>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
> >>>> driver!
> >>>>
> >>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
> >>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
> >>>
> >>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
> >>> so by a factor of ~10?
> >> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
> >> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
> >> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
> >
> > sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
> dozen HP?
no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
of their peak power
Reply by Don Y●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>> for cruising.
>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>> driver!
>>>>
>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>
>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>
> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
dozen HP?
>> I spent 20 minutes in traffic, last week, traveling
>> half a mile (some idiot had closed 2 of 3 travel lanes during
>> "rush hour"). The car indicated I was getting like 3MPG.
>> When I broke free of the construction area, that immediately
>> climbed to ~25MPG for the remaining mile of my trip.]
>
> perfect for an EV or hybrid
Yeah -- an electric hummer. Where's the savings there?
In an SUV, you're still driving "a small car", looking at
the bumpers of the jacked up pickup trucks in front of you.
People aren't one-issue buyers. If I want to save the planet, I'll
walk, more. (I can address all of my shopping needs on foot,
pushing a cart full of items back home along the sidewalk. I
used to walk to the Post Office, 2.5mi each way; the library,
a similar distance; MD at 3 mi -- and, passing many stores
along either of these routes).
But, I'm not keen on spending all of that time "traveling"
especially without "climate controls".
I could adopt a small wheeled vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle)
to overcome the time loss. But, still suffer from being
exposed to the elements.
A "smart car" -- or even a "typical car" -- would be lost
among the oversized vehicles around you (this was SWMBO's
prime motivation for upsizing to an SUV).
We looked at ~30 different vehicles -- including hybrids
and BEVs when she wanted a new ride. The EVs were the first
to fail to make the cut. (We particularly noted how tiny
they are in traffic and how quickly our friends dumped
theirs for larger vehicles -- an electric mustang and
an electric hummer. Gotta wonder how much they're
"saving the planet"!)
She regrets not getting a *larger* SUV. Neither of us
think we've "missed out" by avoiding the electrics.
[I'm currently looking for another "classic" car that I
can slip a big block 454 into and try out some control
algorithms that a colleague and I have been mulling over.
Cars should be *fun* to drive and maintain... what do
you buy for your EV? An air freshener??]
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●August 16, 20232023-08-16
torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 00.25.15 UTC+2 skrev bitrex:
> On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> > On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin
> > <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y
> >>>> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/>
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using
> >>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people
> >>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which
> >>> is pretty convenient.
> >>
> >> That's not practical for a lot of people.
> >>
> >> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under
> >> 10% of their miles from battery power.
> >
> > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
> > for cruising.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> >
> The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the
> materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric
> drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and
> there's not a lot of demand to begin with.
>
> There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution
> space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and
> mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups,
> etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their
> existence.
> On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y
>>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using
>>>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people
>>>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which
>>>> is pretty convenient.
>>>
>>> That's not practical for a lot of people.
>>>
>>> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under
>>> 10% of their miles from battery power.
>>
>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>> for cruising.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>>
>
> The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the
> materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric
> drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and
> there's not a lot of demand to begin with.
>
> There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution
> space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and
> mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups,
> etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their
> existence.
Market forces don't allow their existence, rather
Reply by bitrex●August 16, 20232023-08-16
On 8/16/2023 1:49 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin
> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using
>>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people
>>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which
>>> is pretty convenient.
>>
>> That's not practical for a lot of people.
>>
>> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under
>> 10% of their miles from battery power.
>
> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
> for cruising.
>
> Joe Gwinn
>
The R&D costs of building a well-balanced plug-in hybrid are high, the
materials costs are high since you have to have both an electric
drive-train and mechanical/ICE powertrain, so the margins are low, and
there's not a lot of demand to begin with.
There are all sorts of wild concepts in the hybrid powertrain solution
space that could be explored, sports cars with electric AWD and
mid-engine Wankel range extenders, turbodiesel plug-in hybrid pickups,
etc...that will likely never happen just cuz market don't allow their
existence.