Two sides of a coin

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>>On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/>
>>>>
>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/>
>>> 
>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using
>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people
>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>
>>For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which 
>>is pretty convenient.
>
>That's not practical for a lot of people.
>
>I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under
>10% of their miles from battery power.

Sounds about right.  The theory of the original hybrids was that the
ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
mph traffic on freeways.  There was no intent to run on battery power
for cruising.

Joe Gwinn

On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> Sounds about right.  The theory of the original hybrids was that the
> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
> mph traffic on freeways.  There was no intent to run on battery power
> for cruising.

Exactly.  It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE.  Any ICE with a
real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
driver!

The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.

Putting a large battery in a vehicle as the *sole* power source
misses this point (unless you intend to accelerate continuously!)

The fact that people would find it easier to charge the battery from
the ICE suggests charging is an inconvenience in the eyes of many;
esp if they are going to have to "gas up" eventually!

OTOH, the extended range that the gasoline provides -- and its
ready, convenient availability -- diminishes the "range fear"
inherent in BEVs.

onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> > for cruising.
> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> driver! 
> 
> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 

it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
so by a factor of ~10? 

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 12:01:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
wrote:

> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> > Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>> > ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>> > power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>> > mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>> > for cruising.
>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>> driver!
>> 
>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just
>> *4*
>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
> 
> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat
> road so by a factor of ~10?

I worked with a dynamometer company engineer ~1990 who had just finished 
initial test of 20 dynanometers at GM where one of the engines tested was 
the one in his car.  He recorded a HP vs intake manifold pressure curve, 
fitted his car with an intake manifold pressure gauge, and determined that 
his Chevy sedan with V8 engine used ~6 HP on a level road at a steady 60 
MPH.  Of course the ~200 HP engine was incredibly inefficient at that 
power.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 13:49:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 09:15:26 -0700, John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/>
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using
>>>> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people
>>>> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>
>>>For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which 
>>>is pretty convenient.
>>
>>That's not practical for a lot of people.
>>
>>I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under
>>10% of their miles from battery power.
>
>Sounds about right.  The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>mph traffic on freeways.  There was no intent to run on battery power
>for cruising.
>
>Joe Gwinn

The 10% I saw was for a plug-in hybrid, that's supposed to use battery
power for short trips. One plugin averaged 8% of its miles electric, a
BMW or something.

Maybe rich people buy plug-in hybrids for eco status but don't bother
to charge them in real life.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:47:04 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> Sounds about right.  The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>> mph traffic on freeways.  There was no intent to run on battery power
>> for cruising.
>
>Exactly.  It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE.  Any ICE with a
>real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>driver!
>
>The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>

Turbos are a similar idea, boost a small engine to its mechanical
limits, pass the EPA mileage tests, and let heavy-footed drivers waste
all the gas they want to.

On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>> for cruising.
>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>> driver!
>>
>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
> 
> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
> so by a factor of ~10?

That's probably "ballpark".  Note that not all roads are flat.
And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.

The engine also has to provide power for accessories that
may be in operation regardless of travel speed (e.g., ACbrrrr,
heat, entertainment, lighting, etc.)

[I've seen estimates of ACbrrr loads varying from ~600W to 4KW,
based on how the cool air is distributed and controlled in the
vehicle.  I spent 20 minutes in traffic, last week, traveling
half a mile (some idiot had closed 2 of 3 travel lanes during
"rush hour").  The car indicated I was getting like 3MPG.
When I broke free of the construction area, that immediately
climbed to ~25MPG for the remaining mile of my trip.]

onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> >>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> >>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> >>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> >>> for cruising. 
> >> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> >> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> >> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> >> driver! 
> >> 
> >> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> >> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 
> > 
> > it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road 
> > so by a factor of ~10?
> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat. 
> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need 
> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc. 

sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average

>I spent 20 minutes in traffic, last week, traveling 
> half a mile (some idiot had closed 2 of 3 travel lanes during 
> "rush hour"). The car indicated I was getting like 3MPG. 
> When I broke free of the construction area, that immediately 
> climbed to ~25MPG for the remaining mile of my trip.]

perfect for an EV or hybrid

onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.33.17 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:47:04 -0700, Don Y 
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: 
> 
> >On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> >> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> >> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> >> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> >> for cruising. 
> > 
> >Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> >to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> >real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> >driver! 
> > 
> >The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> >cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 
> >
> Turbos are a similar idea, boost a small engine to its mechanical 
> limits, pass the EPA mileage tests, and let heavy-footed drivers waste 
> all the gas they want to.

turbo engines can be very efficient, about a third of the energy in 
the fuel goes out the exhaust, makes sense to use that energy for 
something useful

F1 engine have a generator on the turbo and achieve 50% efficiency 
which it amazing for a small gasoline combustion engine   

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 03:03:21 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: 
> 
> >On 8/15/2023 11:12 PM, John Larkin wrote: 
> >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:31:58 -0700, Don Y 
> >> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/phevs-pollute-2-4x-more-than-official-ratings-lets-fix-the-eu-loophole/> 
> >>> 
> >>> <https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/reducing-carbon-emissions-hybrid-vs-plug-in-hybrid-vs-battery-electric/> 
> >> 
> >> I wonder, on average, how many phev miles are driven using 
> >> electricity, as opposed to gasoline. I'd expect that lots of people 
> >> gas up instead of charging. Saving The Earth is inconvenient. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> >For me it's as easy as plugging into an extension cord overnight, which 
> >is pretty convenient.
> That's not practical for a lot of people. 
> 
> I saw one chart online that says that some high-end hybrids get under 
> 10% of their miles from battery power.
> > 
> >Even for cars with engines, fully mechanical transmissions are so 20th 
> >century. Like boiler pre-heaters once the hardware is economical enough 
> >to recapture waste energy and feed it back into the system, there's 
> >little reason no to include it
> There is sadly no mechanical equivalent of a switching regulator. 
> Gears are fixed ratios and variable ratio systems are, so far, all 
> inefficient or plain bad. CVTs are often lemons. 

Why not tap into the ABS sensor?  I just need a very rough switching between 168V and 392V.