Two sides of a coin

torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> >>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> >>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> >>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> >>>>> for cruising. 
> >>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> >>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> >>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> >>>> driver! 
> >>>> 
> >>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> >>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 
> >>> 
> >>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road 
> >>> so by a factor of ~10? 
> >> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat. 
> >> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need 
> >> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc. 
> > 
> > sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few 
> dozen HP?

no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions 
of their peak power

On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>
>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>> dozen HP?
> 
> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
> of their peak power

But their peak power isn't *necessary*!

On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 15:32:45 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>>
>>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>>> dozen HP?
>> 
>> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
>> of their peak power
>
>But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
>

There's a limited amount of time that you can accelerate at 0.3 G's.

fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.33.05 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> >>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> >>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> >>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> >>>>>>> for cruising. 
> >>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> >>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> >>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> >>>>>> driver! 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> >>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road 
> >>>>> so by a factor of ~10? 
> >>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat. 
> >>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need 
> >>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc. 
> >>> 
> >>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average 
> >> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few 
> >> dozen HP? 
> > 
> > no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions 
> > of their peak power
> But their peak power isn't *necessary*!

when you want to accelerate to high way speeds in a reasonable time it is
and with an electric motor being capable of short term high peak power doesn't ruin 
the efficiency at low power like it does on a combustion engine

fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.52.09 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 15:32:45 -0700, Don Y 
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: 
> 
> >On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: 
> >>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the 
> >>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the 
> >>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70 
> >>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power 
> >>>>>>>> for cruising. 
> >>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need 
> >>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a 
> >>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the 
> >>>>>>> driver! 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4* 
> >>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road 
> >>>>>> so by a factor of ~10? 
> >>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat. 
> >>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need 
> >>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average 
> >>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few 
> >>> dozen HP? 
> >> 
> >> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions 
> >> of their peak power 
> > 
> >But their peak power isn't *necessary*! 
> >
> There's a limited amount of time that you can accelerate at 0.3 G's.

yep, and some EVs can do +1G

On 8/17/2023 4:10 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> fredag den 18. august 2023 kl. 00.33.05 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 8/17/2023 2:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> torsdag den 17. august 2023 kl. 02.54.43 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>> On 8/16/2023 1:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 22.36.36 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 12:01 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>>> onsdag den 16. august 2023 kl. 20.47.20 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2023 10:49 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sounds about right. The theory of the original hybrids was that the
>>>>>>>>> ICE was sized to candle cruise, and the electric stuff provided the
>>>>>>>>> power surge needed to accelerate fast enough to safely merge into 70
>>>>>>>>> mph traffic on freeways. There was no intent to run on battery power
>>>>>>>>> for cruising.
>>>>>>>> Exactly. It's not just "accelerating to 70MPH"; it's any time you need
>>>>>>>> to draw on the "overprovisioned" capacity of the ICE. Any ICE with a
>>>>>>>> real-time fuel efficiency gauge would make this pretty obvious to the
>>>>>>>> driver!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fact that you can find V8's that will dynamically operate on just *4*
>>>>>>>> cylinders means the ICE is overprovisioned in many cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it takes maybe 30hp to drive a normal car at a steady 65-70mph on flat road
>>>>>>> so by a factor of ~10?
>>>>>> That's probably "ballpark". Note that not all roads are flat.
>>>>>> And, you have to account for variations in wind speed, the need
>>>>>> to accelerate (to pass) *at* 60MPH, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> sure, but you don't need anything like 200-300hp on average
>>>> So, all EVs should similarly be limited to ONLY needing a few
>>>> dozen HP?
>>>
>>> no need to since electric motors are not terribly inefficient at fractions
>>> of their peak power
>> But their peak power isn't *necessary*!
> 
> when you want to accelerate to high way speeds in a reasonable time it is
> and with an electric motor being capable of short term high peak power doesn't ruin
> the efficiency at low power like it does on a combustion engine

That's because of the *way* you want to accelerate.

In NYC, a cab driver isn't going to be accelerating to high speed
coming off a traffic light.  Here, OTOH, the speed limit between
lights is 45 -- meaning 55MPH.  And, you've got a mile before the
next one so a big incentive to take advantage of that speed.

There's nothing -- in "nature" -- that requires that performance
just like nothing requires me to drive 4000 pounds of vehicle to
the post office to check my box.  OTOH, there are times when
I want to lug 1000+ pounds of kit from point A to point B
and would be really annoyed if I had to do that in several trips!

It takes me almost a month to go through a full tank of gas.
Yet, I'd *not* want a smaller tank because of those times when I
may want to do a month of driving in a weekend (e.g., going to an
art exhibit in Feenigs will use almost a full tank of gas in a *day*).

So, I have to drive a vehicle that addresses ALL of these potential
usage types -- because I don't want to have to own additional vehicles
for specific use cases.

But, there is nothing REQUIRING that to be a condition for
life going forward.  Personal situations can change (we have
friends who NEVER drive as they live in a "catered" environment
and just keep their vehicles "in case").  And, society can
change the way it accommodates people to encourage or discourage
behaviors that they (society) consider harmful.

E.g., I'd much rather get on a high speed rail to get to
feenigs without having to *drive* myself -- esp if there was
a service at the far end that would get me the last few miles
to my specific destination.