On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > >>> > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > >> > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > >> > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > >> instead?) > > > > >> > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips?I believe the GFCI in the device is part of the spec. I looked into building my own a few years back. It doesn't save much money, so I dropped the idea. But, the GFCI is in every EVSE you can buy. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
EV charging on GFCI
Started by ●August 6, 2023
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On 8/8/2023 9:21 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:>> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > afaik RCDs are mandatory in EU, at least it is here. Though they are not like the US, they are at > the fuse panel and ~30mA. So I'm sure the manufacturers have thought about itIn the US, you can take the "cheap" (aftermarket) way of adding GFCI to a branch circuit by purchasing an outlet with GFCI capability. To be effective, it must be wired as the first device on the (typically daisy-chained) branch circuit. Downstream devices are connected to a separate set of terminals so those loads are guaranteed to pass through the GFCI (typically, the downstream loads are wired to a second set of terminals IN PARALLEL with the supply feed. Or, better, are tied to the feed with wirenuts and the local outlet fed via a pigtail.) [Wirenut-pigtail approach is more resilient as simply using the "second set" of screw terminals on a device often leads to a connection that loosens, over time, and ALL of the downstream loads pass through this connection. The pigtail approach keeps the "supply" intact to all devices so any loosening of a connection only affects THAT device. GFCI's often fail from conditions like this (or, moisture infiltration). And, the "back stab" connections are absolutely ludicrous!] The problem with GFCI outlets is loads that are not "outlets". Alternatively, a GFCI (or AFCI, nowadays) circuit breaker can be installed in the load center to protect everything on the branch circuit. [You can also buy extension cords with GFCIs in-line] Code requires branch circuits that serve garages, outdoor locations, kitchen counters, bathrooms, laundry and basements to be GFCI protected. If water MIGHT be present, expect a GFCI to be reuired. (AFCI protection is now required for bedrooms, IIRC). [I think there is an exception for outlets located 8 or more feet above the floor... so, the outlet that typ powers your garage door opener need not be GFCI-protected. Or, the spotlights that illuminate your yard, ceiling fans, etc.] So, unless you plan on charging your vehicle in your living room, attic, dining room, etc. you can expect it to be powered by a GFCI protected circuit. One would think that the folks designing these chargers would be aware of this and take steps to ensure nuisance trips aren't an issue. Otherwise, folks will resort to practices that disable/bypass those protections (like removing the failed battery from a smoke-detector to silence it, thereby defeating the purpose of the device). [Do people still cut the third prong (earth) off of power cords because they have an outlet that doesn't have an earth connection??]> VFDs and other big switchers are notorious for tripping RCDs, they don't like DC
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop? What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"? -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking. > It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?With an electronic mop.> What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"?It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:49:35 AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking. > > It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop? > With an electronic mop. > > What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"? > It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.One option is to ground the car itself, instead of the charger, and see what happen.
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On 8/8/2023 9:40 AM, Don Y wrote:> ... so, the outlet that typ powers your garage door opener need not be GFCI-protected.Very interesting. I'm going to see if that's the case in my garage. Thanks Don!
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking. > > It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop? > With an electronic mop. > > What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"? > It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI."Biasing circuit"??? The GFCI has a toroid transformer core with both power leads are wound through. There is also a sense winding. As long as the current in the power leads is balanced, there is no net flux and no current in the sense line. When unbalanced, a current is generated in the sense line which is detected and used to trip a relay. There is no biasing. I know learning about stuff is not your strong point. Your "go to" approach is to invent ideas of how things work, rather than doing some research and learning. I especially like that you used Google to find some electrician who shares your erroneous beliefs. "don’t play well together" That's the sort of professional language I like to hear. Unfortunately, I can't find any info on this from anyone who knows what they are talking about. -- Rick C. +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:52:55 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:49:35 AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking. > > > It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop? > > With an electronic mop. > > > What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"? > > It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI. > One option is to ground the car itself, instead of the charger, and see what happen.The car is grounded through the EVSE. This is why you are not allowed to play with sharp objects. You want to try all manner of things, rather than learning about something first. -- Rick C. ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 10:46:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking. > > > It's leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop? > > With an electronic mop. > > > What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is "leaking"? > > It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI. > "Biasing circuit"??? The GFCI has a toroid transformer core with both power leads are wound through. There is also a sense winding. As long as the current in the power leads is balanced, there is no net flux and no current in the sense line. When unbalanced, a current is generated in the sense line which is detected and used to trip a relay.Yes, this is one way.> > There is no biasing. > > I know learning about stuff is not your strong point. Your "go to" approach is to invent ideas of how things work, rather than doing some research and learning. I especially like that you used Google to find some electrician who shares your erroneous beliefs. "don’t play well together" That's the sort of professional language I like to hear. > > Unfortunately, I can't find any info on this from anyone who knows what they are talking about.Who knows what other ways they are doing.> The car is grounded through the EVSE.Yes, I mean grounding the J1772 plug side of the EVSE, rather than the power side of the EVSE.> This is why you are not allowed to play with sharp objects. You want to try all manner of things, rather than learning about something first.So, i am allowed to play with HV, which is not sharp.
Reply by ●August 8, 20232023-08-08
On 07-08-2023 04:51, Eddy Lee wrote:> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?It's been a long time since I heard of it, but a colleague of mine had the issue on US mains fed systems feeding inverter drives. AFAIR it was due to the y capacitor in the drive that was not symmetrical, so when the inrush control fed current into the DC link capacitor, it would charge the y capacitors unsymmetric depending on where the turn on was done on the mains curve. I guess, some GFCIs can be tripped by high differential inrush currents if the DMRR is not perfect (Differential Mode Rejection Ratio, first time I used that term)
