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On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30&#8239;AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25&#8239;AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17&#8239;PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/> 
> > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed. 
> > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too? 
> > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of). 
> > 
> > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

> You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.

Just heard about a shrink doctor checking himself in a mental hospital for a short time (he assumed).  A few years later, he sued the hospital for with-holding drugs and made him worst.  Would have been better if he prescribed drugs for himself.

Anyway, good deal for $99 generator.  Waiting for one by Fed-Ex snail mail.  Might get couple more later.  I need 2 and 5/16 generators for 384V.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195276204795

On 8/15/2023 8:04 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/15/2023 7:33 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>> Typically, (all) requirements get tighter, over time as 
>>>>> technologies and
>>>>> techniques become commonplace.&nbsp; And, evidence accumulates as to the
>>>>> efficacy of newly established requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that old and new are allowed to coexist.&nbsp; So, you 
>>>>> can find
>>>>> homes with K&T wiring... *and* GFCIs on their stoves/cooktops!
>>>>
>>>> GFCIs work fine on K&T.
>>>
>>> If you reread my comment, you won't find my claiming that they *don't*!
>>> Rather, I made the point that "old and new are allowed to coexist";
>>> K&T being an example of an *old* wiring practice while GFCI's (*on 
>>> stoves*,
>>> no less, not just bathroom/counters!) an example of a more modern one.
>>
>> You said "The problem is...."
>>
>> So there is no "The problem is...."
> 
> Of course there's a problem.&nbsp; "Old" doesn't provide the same protections 
> that
> "new" does.&nbsp; A house wired without an earth ground routed to all outlets is
> definitely less safe than one that has such a ground.&nbsp;&nbsp; A house without 
> GFCIs
> (which is possible as there is no requirement to retrofit) is less safe
> than a house WITH GFCIs.&nbsp; Ditto AFCIs.&nbsp; Smoke/CO detectors/etc.
> 
>>> It is the exception, rather than the rule, that any structure will be
>>> "up to" the current Code (as defined by local AHJ) -- unless the 
>>> building
>>> was very recently erected.
>>
>> There is no mechanism in the NEC to require buildings be kept up to 
>> current code. Such a requirement would be stupidly expensive. Other 
>> codes could have limited requirements, for instance, require 2 kitchen 
>> appliance circuits in rental units.
>>
>> But not being up to current code is not a problem - there is no "The 
>> problem is...."
> 
> Clearly you have a bizarre idea of whether or not safety (lack of)
> presents a problem.

K&T, in your example, is easily protected with GFCIs, in your example.

I like circuits with grounds. But I survived living in a house and 
duplex with K&T.

Present house was originally wired in rigid conduit and now has GFCIs 
where new code requires. I would like to see actual stats on AFCIs 
(stats didn't exist for the NEC). I believe a major manufacturer was 
pushing AFCIs.

The NEC has some stupid provisions. The major relevant section of the 
code allows a 20A (or 30A or 50A) "single" receptacle on a 15A circuit. 
Same section doesn't allow some plug-in devices (amp rating) that UL 
allows (an unenforceable provision).

> 
>>>> They are explicitly allowed on circuits without a ground (a label is 
>>>> applied to the grounded GFCI receptacle that says something like "No 
>>>> ground").
>>>
>>> "GFCI Protected".&nbsp; This is also present on outlets powered from
>>> GFCI breakers lest someone think they need to *add* GFCI protection
>>> to such outlets.&nbsp; And, to differentiate them from outlets that may
>>> be similar (identical!) in appearance, nearby.
>>
>> GFCI protected receptacles that have no ground connection must also to 
>> be labeled "No equipment ground".
> 
> Which is exactly what the first sentence, above, states.&nbsp; The *second* 
> sentence
> *adds* that this labeling is also present on GFCI *breaker* protected 
> outlets
> to differentiate them from (likely identical appearing) outlets that 
> have no
> such protection.

First sentence: "GFCI Protected". That is not "exactly" the same as "No 
equipment ground".

> 
> 
>>>> GFCIs can also protect downstream 2-wire circuits which I believe 
>>>> can have grounded receptacles (with the label).
>>>>
>>>>> And, there's no easy way for someone to ascertain all of the things 
>>>>> that
>>>>> aren't up to *current* Code without an inspection and *detailed*
>>>>> knowledge of the current Code.
>>>>
>>>> People actually survived under previous codes. Safety is relative. 
>>>> AFCIs were 
>>>
>>> And people were able to drive cars before seat belts, air bags, ABS, 
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> One can also drink water from a stream and not be *guaranteed* to 
>>> take ill!&nbsp; :>
>>
>> There is no "The problem is...."
> 
> And there's no problem with cars not having seatbelts, or medications 
> requiring
> FDA approval.
> 
>>>> adopted without demonstration they improved safety. (Code change 
>>>> proposals are 
>>>
>>> AFCIs address fires, not electrocution.
>>
>> AFCIs address safety, including fire&nbsp; The NEC is about safety. It is 
>> published by the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assn.
> 
> AFCIs address fires, not electrocution.&nbsp; You seem to have a problem with
> reading comprehension.
> 
> You've already made it clear that safety isn't important to you...
> ("Not a problem")
> 
>>>> commonly rejected because the proposal lacks "substantiation".)
>>>>
>>>>> E.g., GFCIs often fail in a manner that allows the circuit to remain
>>>>> powered but unprotected (!).&nbsp; As this has become apparent, the (UL)
>>>>> requirements for GFCIs have been tightened in an effort to make
>>>>> such unsafe conditions visible to the user.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, there are multiple ways that a conforming device can do this,
>>>>> each with different degrees of "inconvenience" to the user (the most
>>>>> inconvenient typically being the one that provides the greatest
>>>>> protection!).
>>>>>
>>>>> And, different implementations can be exempted from some of these
>>>>> requirements.&nbsp; E.g., if the trip solenoid is open-circuited, a GFCI
>>>>> *receptacle* must handle this fault either by:
>>>>> - denying power to the receptacle regardless of user's attempt to 
>>>>> reset
>>>>> - denying power but allowing the user to reset (until next test)
>>>>> - a visual/audible indication
>>>>> (So, you don't have a consistent manner of handling the fault from
>>>>> one device to another!)
>>>>>
>>>>> *BUT*, a GFCI *breaker* powering that circuit need not even *detect*
>>>>> such a fault!&nbsp; This because of the way GFCI breakers were designed
>>>>> at the time the requirement was put into place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same requirement (and exception!) applies to a fault in the
>>>>> semiconductor that controls the trip solenoid.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember seeing a GFCI that didn't protect (except if wired 
>>>> line-load reversed - and that problems has been pretty well 
>>>> eliminated. If reverse wired the GFCI now can't be reset, and the 
>>>> GFCI comes tripped.)
>>>>
>>>> I have found GFCIs that wouldn't reset - seems to be the failure mode.
>>>
>>> "Not seeing them" isn't proof that they don't exist.&nbsp; And, apparently
>>> a high percentage!
>>>
>>> <http://www.neca-neis.org/ccl/newsletter/reportde06.html?articleID=814>
>>>
>>> This prompted UL to add test features to their requirements that
>>> alert the user to this lack of protection (alternatively allowing
>>> the manufacturer to deny power to the protected circuit).
>>
>> The link is from 2000.
> 
> And, as YOU have stated, there is no requirement to retrofit kit!
> So, any home with such a device in it would INCREASINGLY fall into
> that statistical summary.

Where are the pictures of dead bodies. They are very effective in 
getting code changes.

> 
>> "Underwriters Laboratories requires that GFCIs be tested monthly". Has 
>> been with every GFCI package I have seen.
> 
> And EVERYONE tests them, right?&nbsp; <rolls eyes>

Don't know about you.
I test them if there is a remote possibility of useful protection - 
mostly working in the yard.

> 
> Cigarettes have had warnings on their packaging for... EVER!
> 
>> Standards for GFCIs (and AFCIs, and lots of other stuff) are often 
>> revised. This thread describes 3 revisions to the GFCI standard,
> 
> And none of the revisions (or original standard) need apply to ANY existing
> building.

Where is the news of injuries from old GFCIs that would not have 
happened with 'new' GFCIs.

I don't see the major danger, for instance, of not immediately detecting 
a downstream N-G short. It will be detected when there is load current - 
voltage drop.

A major exception is that the originally mandated AFCIs were known to 
be, in effect, beta versions, with MUCH better detection coming real 
soon. But the NEC mandated them anyway.

You will be thrilled that a recent NEC revision requires that if a 
receptacle in new wiring now requires AFCI or GFCI protection, a 
replacement receptacle at that location requires that protection. It is 
a requirement that is not enforceable (unless you call an inspector when 
you replace a receptacle). But I am confident that everyone here will 
provide protection, as appropriate.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:12:34&#8239;AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30&#8239;AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25&#8239;AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17&#8239;PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/> 
> > > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed. 
> > > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too? 
> > > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of). 
> > > 
> > > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg 
> > You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.
> Why? It's a practical solution to the difficult problem. 
> Just need to hold-on for another year or so. EA and EvGo are building at Primm.

The battery sticks are 3S3P of Panasonics 18650B (3.4Ah, 10Wh).  Each stick is 90Wh.  A crate (size/weight of 4 gallon bottles) of 8x4 is around 3KWhr or 9 miles.  3 to 4 crates should cover Primm to Vegas or Primm to Baker.

The sticks were made in 2020, but never used.  They are randomly tested to be 90% to 105% rated capacity.  However, my original source is out; so, I am thinking of building 4S2P 16V version.  The onboard BMS balances cells with 5 bars LED indicators.  I would also bring that out with a 6 pins header on one end and same 12 pins on another.  I would use the tabbed version of cells.  So, just need a new PCB.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30&#8239;AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25&#8239;AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17&#8239;PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/> 
> > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed. 
> > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too? 
> > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of). 
> > 
> > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg
> You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable. 

Why?  It's a practical solution to the difficult problem.  
Just need to hold-on for another year or so.  EA and EvGo are building at Primm.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25&#8239;AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17&#8239;PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > > > 
> > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/> 
> > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed. 
> > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?
> But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of). 
> 
> http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

You really need to get to a shrink.  This might still be early enough to be treatable.  

-- 

  Rick C.

  ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17&#8239;PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > > 
> > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > > 
> > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > > 
> > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/> 
> > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too? 

But they don't give out free gas at Primm.  Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage.  Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top.  Others are narrow at the top.  Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).

http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32&#8239;PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> > > 
> > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > > 
> > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? 
> > Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> > 
> > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.

I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too? 

-- 

  Rick C.

  +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05&#8239;PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? 
> >
> > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? 
> > 
> > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> Possibly related -- definitely amusing! 
> 
> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>

When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.

On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit.  How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> 
> The 15A power extension is fine.  I have used this charger on another house before.  Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> 
> Anyway to deal with this?  Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?

Possibly related -- definitely amusing!

<https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>