On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:06:36 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:55:35 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 10:51:54 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? > > > > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? > > > I have always read this is always a problem with GFCI protected backup generator powering a house load. The problem is the house bonds GND and Neutral at the distribution panel. This causes the load return currents to current divide between the GND and N lines to the generator, causing the GFCI current sense on N to be unequal to the same on L, which of course trips the GFCI majorly. See if the charger didn't bond the input N and GND together for some reason. A static ohmmeter reading on the plug will show this. > > I am sure N is not tied to PE. The EVSE/charger works for 220V also, so both wires are L and no N. The original connector is NEMA-20P, with adapter to regular 110V. > 5-20P is a 125V plug, so that means L and N. What connector do you use to plug into 220?Sorry, 6-20P. with the right pin sideway.
EV charging on GFCI
Started by ●August 6, 2023
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body.There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance. And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there. Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements.> > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-mapsAdoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere.> > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions.Pretty broad statement of misinformation there. It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code.> > -- > > Rick C. > > -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body. > There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance.Which code, NEC or state? I'm pretty sure the insurance companies are not going to refuse to insure every building in the state because there is no mandate to use the most current NEC. At this point you are just blowing smoke. Please stop.> And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there.Ok, we are off in fantasy land now. This is a simple matter. I gave you links that show what revisions, if any, of the NEC are used in various states. Yes, buildings must be in compliance with the regulations of the state they are in. That's it. NEC is only enforced if the state mandates it. You need to stop BSing now.> Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements. > > > > > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps > > Adoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere.Wrong. There are four states that leave it up to the local jurisdictions. Also, each state has selected the revision of the NEC, with some being as old as 2008.> > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions. > Pretty broad statement of misinformation there.You only need to look at the map and other information provided! But that's too hard for you, isn't it?> It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code.Except there is no state code in four US states. Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri. Only 25 states have adopted the 2020 NEC. Please stop lying about this. -- Rick C. -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:06 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:06:36 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:55:35 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 10:51:54 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? > > > > I have always read this is always a problem with GFCI protected backup generator powering a house load. The problem is the house bonds GND and Neutral at the distribution panel. This causes the load return currents to current divide between the GND and N lines to the generator, causing the GFCI current sense on N to be unequal to the same on L, which of course trips the GFCI majorly. See if the charger didn't bond the input N and GND together for some reason. A static ohmmeter reading on the plug will show this. > > > I am sure N is not tied to PE. The EVSE/charger works for 220V also, so both wires are L and no N. The original connector is NEMA-20P, with adapter to regular 110V. > > 5-20P is a 125V plug, so that means L and N. What connector do you use to plug into 220? > Sorry, 6-20P. with the right pin sideway.Take your meter and check for any continuity between either hot blade and that ground prong. If they're both OL, then go back to the receptacle and de-wire it so you can interpose your meter between receptacle GND terminal and wiring GND. Use 10A scale and plug the charger in to see if there's any current there.
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > > > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body. > > There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance. > Which code, NEC or state? I'm pretty sure the insurance companies are not going to refuse to insure every building in the state because there is no mandate to use the most current NEC. At this point you are just blowing smoke. Please stop. > > And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there. > Ok, we are off in fantasy land now. This is a simple matter. I gave you links that show what revisions, if any, of the NEC are used in various states. Yes, buildings must be in compliance with the regulations of the state they are in. That's it. NEC is only enforced if the state mandates it. You need to stop BSing now. > > Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements. > > > > > > > > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > > > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps > > > > Adoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere. > Wrong. There are four states that leave it up to the local jurisdictions. Also, each state has selected the revision of the NEC, with some being as old as 2008. > > > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions. > > Pretty broad statement of misinformation there. > You only need to look at the map and other information provided! But that's too hard for you, isn't it? > > It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code. > Except there is no state code in four US states. Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri. > > Only 25 states have adopted the 2020 NEC. > > Please stop lying about this.Get lost, psychopath know-nothing.> > -- > > Rick C. > > -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:06 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:06:36 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:55:35 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 10:51:54 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet? > > > > I have always read this is always a problem with GFCI protected backup generator powering a house load. The problem is the house bonds GND and Neutral at the distribution panel. This causes the load return currents to current divide between the GND and N lines to the generator, causing the GFCI current sense on N to be unequal to the same on L, which of course trips the GFCI majorly. See if the charger didn't bond the input N and GND together for some reason. A static ohmmeter reading on the plug will show this. > > > I am sure N is not tied to PE. The EVSE/charger works for 220V also, so both wires are L and no N. The original connector is NEMA-20P, with adapter to regular 110V. > > 5-20P is a 125V plug, so that means L and N. What connector do you use to plug into 220? > Sorry, 6-20P. with the right pin sideway.That's right, you said the GFCI trips immediately. Go back to your panel and pull the GFCI 2-pole, and replace it with a non-GFCI 2-pole from another circuit temporarily. Most of those will be 30A, don't pay attention to that as long as it's more than 20A. This procedure is strictly for testing.
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:43:53 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > > > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > > > > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body. > > > There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance. > > Which code, NEC or state? I'm pretty sure the insurance companies are not going to refuse to insure every building in the state because there is no mandate to use the most current NEC. At this point you are just blowing smoke. Please stop. > > > And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there. > > Ok, we are off in fantasy land now. This is a simple matter. I gave you links that show what revisions, if any, of the NEC are used in various states. Yes, buildings must be in compliance with the regulations of the state they are in. That's it. NEC is only enforced if the state mandates it. You need to stop BSing now. > > > Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements. > > > > > > > > > > > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > > > > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps > > > > > > Adoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere. > > Wrong. There are four states that leave it up to the local jurisdictions. Also, each state has selected the revision of the NEC, with some being as old as 2008. > > > > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions. > > > Pretty broad statement of misinformation there. > > You only need to look at the map and other information provided! But that's too hard for you, isn't it? > > > It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code. > > Except there is no state code in four US states. Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri. > > > > Only 25 states have adopted the 2020 NEC. > > > > Please stop lying about this. > Get lost, psychopath know-nothing.Yup. That's your MO when you are shown to be wrong. I hope you don't continue spreading wrong information, now that you've been shown the truth. -- Rick C. +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On 8/10/2023 3:54 AM, Chris B wrote:> In our part of EU, ground fault detection has been mandatory for decades.The *earliest* requirement for GFCI protection, here, goes back about 50 years. But, was of very narrow application (lighting in swimming pools). Typically, (all) requirements get tighter, over time as technologies and techniques become commonplace. And, evidence accumulates as to the efficacy of newly established requirements. The problem is that old and new are allowed to coexist. So, you can find homes with K&T wiring... *and* GFCIs on their stoves/cooktops! And, there's no easy way for someone to ascertain all of the things that aren't up to *current* Code without an inspection and *detailed* knowledge of the current Code. E.g., GFCIs often fail in a manner that allows the circuit to remain powered but unprotected (!). As this has become apparent, the (UL) requirements for GFCIs have been tightened in an effort to make such unsafe conditions visible to the user. But, there are multiple ways that a conforming device can do this, each with different degrees of "inconvenience" to the user (the most inconvenient typically being the one that provides the greatest protection!). And, different implementations can be exempted from some of these requirements. E.g., if the trip solenoid is open-circuited, a GFCI *receptacle* must handle this fault either by: - denying power to the receptacle regardless of user's attempt to reset - denying power but allowing the user to reset (until next test) - a visual/audible indication (So, you don't have a consistent manner of handling the fault from one device to another!) *BUT*, a GFCI *breaker* powering that circuit need not even *detect* such a fault! This because of the way GFCI breakers were designed at the time the requirement was put into place. The same requirement (and exception!) applies to a fault in the semiconductor that controls the trip solenoid. [I think this loophole has been closed].> Nowadays, requirements are evolving because users connect new types of > loads&equipment to the mains. > > There are different types of RCD depending on which kind of fault current > they detect (also in historical order): > Type AC: only detects AC currents, not allowed anymore > Type A: also detects pulsed DC; commonly used now, works for most loads > Type F: increased frequency range, seldom use, for inverter drives > Type B: trips on pure DC currents, too; required for most inverters and > EV charging (needed because fault current could be from EV DC voltage) > DC current can also prevent correct funtion of the other RCD types by > saturating their coil.The same sorts of refinements exist here, as well. Each with specific application and performance criteria (that evolve over time).> To guarantee correct operation when cascading RCDs, there are a couple of > rules. They result in RCDs with different trip levels, delayed versions and > special RCD with low DC trip levels (to make sure upstream RCDs still work).Here, additionally, the "confusion" that results from cascading protective devices (or any other application/requirement) also plays a role in the imposed requirements. E.g., "deployments" that lead to a large number of nuisance faults are discouraged because of the fact that people will take steps to circumvent the protections offered. (e.g., you won't see smoke detectors ALLOWED in kitchens as they will, too often, be tripped)
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > > > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body. > > There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance. > Which code, NEC or state? I'm pretty sure the insurance companies are not going to refuse to insure every building in the state because there is no mandate to use the most current NEC. At this point you are just blowing smoke. Please stop. > > And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there. > Ok, we are off in fantasy land now. This is a simple matter. I gave you links that show what revisions, if any, of the NEC are used in various states. Yes, buildings must be in compliance with the regulations of the state they are in. That's it. NEC is only enforced if the state mandates it. You need to stop BSing now. > > Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements. > > > > > > > > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > > > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps > > > > Adoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere. > Wrong. There are four states that leave it up to the local jurisdictions. Also, each state has selected the revision of the NEC, with some being as old as 2008. > > > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions. > > Pretty broad statement of misinformation there. > You only need to look at the map and other information provided! But that's too hard for you, isn't it? > > It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code. > Except there is no state code in four US states. Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri.That's because of the way their state governments are organized, the state can't adopt a code for the localities. Idiot. All the localities adopt the NEC. For some of these states it's a major administrative hurdle to adopt the latest code, it could take years.> > Only 25 states have adopted the 2020 NEC.No one is in any hurry to adopt the latest revisions, and that's usually because there's no emergency to do so. The administrative bureaucracy is involved and that means a long time. That's not a code issue. If there's a problem with product defect then that's a separate issue and has nothing to do with the code.> > Please stop lying about this.You're a moron who thinks because there's no formal code adoption at the state level, the code must be disregarded or something. Like I said, you're a complete psycopathic idiot in denial about your suitability to walk around free in society.> > -- > > Rick C. > > -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 10, 20232023-08-10
On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:39:38 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:27:57 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:55:57 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:34:55 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:19:45 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y: > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires? > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> direct physical leakage to surrounding ground. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire? > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> electricians to charge more for each fixture they install. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Likewise, those pesky *fuses*! > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*? > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost? > > > > > > > > > > > >>> A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of > > > > > > > > > > > >>> both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in, > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already > > > > > > > > > > > >>> have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play > > > > > > > > > > > >>> well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.” > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > >> Duh. You aren't supposed to cascade GFCI's. (And, actually, AFCI's are > > > > > > > > > > > >> now the new norm) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven't realized that > > > > > > > > > > > >> ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and > > > > > > > > > > > >> designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when > > > > > > > > > > > >> you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just > > > > > > > > > > > >> washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet, > > > > > > > > > > > >> instead?) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> [If you're like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT > > > > > > > > > > > >> the outlet] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI. > > > > > > > > > > > So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they > > > > > > > > > > > designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL > > > > > > > > > > > be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly, > > > > > > > > > > > someone didn't understand their application! > > > > > > > > > > his "charger" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum > > > > > > > > > No, it's a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together? > > > > > > > > isn't it the GFCI in the house that trips? > > > > > > > The NEC in U.S. requires that all outdoor receptacles as well as receptacles in "damp" locations be GFCI protected. > > > > > > The NEC is not actually a regulation. Each state decides on their own regulations, usually adopting the NEC, but on their own timetable. It's not unusual for a state to wait 20 years to adopt any particular section of NEC. They also modify the language when they choose. > > > > > States don't create their own electric codes. They do create their own building codes, and the localities put together their own building codes. All the codes are a collection of callouts to national standards codes by year of issue, including the NEC. They can do anything they want except cost the builders more money. > > > > If you say so. The point is, having an NEC section, does not make it a regulation in any state. And states do have their own regulations which can be the same as NEC or can be different. There is no federal mandate to adopt anything in the NEC. NEC is a private organization, not a government body. > > > There's an insurance mandate, you're not going to get any without code compliance. > > Which code, NEC or state? I'm pretty sure the insurance companies are not going to refuse to insure every building in the state because there is no mandate to use the most current NEC. At this point you are just blowing smoke. Please stop. > > > And you can't get a mortgage either, lender requires an inspection for...wait for it...code compliance, that would be everything structural, electrical, plumbing, ordinance setbacks, you name it. Oh yeah, one minor little detail, locality will either pull or not issue certificate of occupancy for the dwelling. Meaning you'll get arrested if you try to live there. > > Ok, we are off in fantasy land now. This is a simple matter. I gave you links that show what revisions, if any, of the NEC are used in various states. Yes, buildings must be in compliance with the regulations of the state they are in. That's it. NEC is only enforced if the state mandates it. You need to stop BSing now. > > > Absolutely none of this is pertinent to GFCI requirements. > > > > > > > > > > > https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption > > > > https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps > > > > > > Adoption map shows it is adopted everywhere, and which code by issue year is adopted. It doesn't show it's not adopted anywhere. > > Wrong. There are four states that leave it up to the local jurisdictions. Also, each state has selected the revision of the NEC, with some being as old as 2008. > > > > Notice some states don't mandate anything. The leave it to the local jurisdictions. > > > Pretty broad statement of misinformation there. > > You only need to look at the map and other information provided! But that's too hard for you, isn't it? > > > It's a lot of trouble to write a code, so a smaller less resourced jurisdiction will just mandate everything conforms to the sate code. > > Except there is no state code in four US states. Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri. > That's because of the way their state governments are organized, the state can't adopt a code for the localities. Idiot. > > All the localities adopt the NEC. For some of these states it's a major administrative hurdle to adopt the latest code, it could take years.The NEC is not mandatory in any way. The various jurisdictions adopt the NEC as they see fit, when they see fit. I have provided links, including links at NEC that tell you about this. You don't need to take my word for any of it. But... you are afraid to read, you might learn something.> > Only 25 states have adopted the 2020 NEC. > No one is in any hurry to adopt the latest revisions, and that's usually because there's no emergency to do so. The administrative bureaucracy is involved and that means a long time. That's not a code issue.Not sure what you mean, it's "not a code issue". Why would it be a "code issue"? The code for any jurisdiction is set by that jurisdiction.> If there's a problem with product defect then that's a separate issue and has nothing to do with the code. > > > > Please stop lying about this. > You're a moron who thinks because there's no formal code adoption at the state level, the code must be disregarded or something. Like I said, you're a complete psycopathic idiot in denial about your suitability to walk around free in society.You can't seem to understand anything I provide. There's no mandatory adoption of the NEC by any jurisdiction, states, or local. It is for each body to decide. You know this by now, unless you have refused to read any of the links I've provided. I guess some people are just hard headed. Whatever. We've done this dance before where I provide you with evidence and you refuse to acknowledge that it exists. Hurrah for you! -- Rick C. +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
