On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of >>>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their "system" is >>>> magnified. >>>> >>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective >>>> that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems an >>>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem >>>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the >>>> epidemic) >>>> >>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this >>>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" >>>> >>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even >>>> though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the >>>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably >>>> more benign than theirs? >>> >>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the >>> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so >>> that makes everything final. >> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. >> Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has >> to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... >> including foreign investors. >> >> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing >> center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the >> folks who support him? >> >> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are >> no other effective alternatives available. My understanding >> is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the >> vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal >> vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?) > > They have a high vaccination rate: > https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more recent strains? It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff.> Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let them run the place.I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their approach and "reward" them, justly.
OT: China covid
Started by ●November 26, 2022
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:03:34 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:> On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > >> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > >>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of > >>>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their "system" is > >>>> magnified. > >>>> > >>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective > >>>> that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems an > >>>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem > >>>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the > >>>> epidemic) > >>>> > >>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this > >>>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" > >>>> > >>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even > >>>> though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the > >>>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably > >>>> more benign than theirs? > >>> > >>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the > >>> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so > >>> that makes everything final. > >> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. > >> Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has > >> to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... > >> including foreign investors. > >> > >> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing > >> center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the > >> folks who support him? > >> > >> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are > >> no other effective alternatives available. My understanding > >> is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the > >> vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal > >> vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?) > > > > They have a high vaccination rate: > > https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ > So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more > recent strains?Perhaps not as effective, but not really the issue. Even if they have top of the line mRNA vaccines, there will be certain amount of break-thru cases. Even 10s of thousands are small for a billion people. But Xi/CCP outlaws any case at all. The Emperor said zero and how dare you report it otherwise.> It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff. > > Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let them run the place. > I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their > approach and "reward" them, justly.Now they are chanting: down with Xi and down with CCP in Shanghai and other cities.
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 4:03:34 PM UTC+11, Don Y wrote:> On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > >> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > >>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of > >>>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their "system" is > >>>> magnified. > >>>> > >>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective > >>>> that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems an > >>>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem > >>>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the > >>>> epidemic) > >>>> > >>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this > >>>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" > >>>> > >>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even > >>>> though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the > >>>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably > >>>> more benign than theirs? > >>> > >>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the > >>> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so > >>> that makes everything final. > >> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. > >> Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has > >> to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... > >> including foreign investors. > >> > >> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing > >> center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the > >> folks who support him? > >> > >> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are > >> no other effective alternatives available. My understanding > >> is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the > >> vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal > >> vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?) > > > > They have a high vaccination rate: > > https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ > > So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more recent strains?It's not a great vaccine. Indonesia bought a lot of it, and while it does offer some protection, quite a few vaccinated people caught Covid-19 and died. It's a whole virus vaccine, and relatively minor mutations let the let the virus change it's shape enough to evade the antibodies it evokes. The western vaccines programmed your cells to produce just the original spike protein, which is fairly highly conserved, They aren't all that effective against the most recent strains, but the Moderna bivbalent vaccine programs your cells to produce a couple of different spike proteins, closer to those expressed by the more recent variants. I've had the vaccine, and I still haven't caught Covid-19 yet.> It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff. > > > Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let them run the place. > > I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their approach and "reward" them, justly.Lock-downs don't help production. Neither do a lot of Covid-19 infections. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On 11/27/2022 10:16 PM, Ed Lee wrote:> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:03:34 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote: >> On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>>> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>>>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>>>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? >>>>>> Of course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their >>>>>> "system" is magnified. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly >>>>>> ineffective that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately >>>>>> so? It seems an inordinately high price to pay (the damages their >>>>>> economy is seeing seem to dwarf any of the measures put in place, >>>>>> here, at the peak of the epidemic) >>>>>> >>>>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and >>>>>> this policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" >>>>>> >>>>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- >>>>>> even though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face >>>>>> the consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences >>>>>> considerably more benign than theirs? >>>>> >>>>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip >>>>> to the execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are >>>>> the answer, so that makes everything final. >>>> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. Even if no >>>> one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has to know that they will >>>> *look* stupid to anyone who cares... including foreign investors. >>>> >>>> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing center), is >>>> that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the folks who support >>>> him? >>>> >>>> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are no other >>>> effective alternatives available. My understanding is that vaccination >>>> rates (regardless of how effective the vaccine is) are low, there. Why >>>> hasn't he mandated universal vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution >>>> problems?) >>> >>> They have a high vaccination rate: >>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ >> >>>So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more>> recent strains? > > Perhaps not as effective, but not really the issue. Even if they have top > of the line mRNA vaccines, there will be certain amount of break-thru cases. > Even 10s of thousands are small for a billion people. But Xi/CCP outlaws > any case at all. The Emperor said zero and how dare you report it > otherwise.As I said (below), it's hard to imagine this boils down to hubris. Surely, by now, Xi could have "fudged" a solution that allows him to save face (claim victory) *and* alter the policy. He can't be THAT stupid (he doesn't LOOK "orange")>> It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff. >>> Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let >>> them run the place. >> I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their >> approach and "reward" them, justly. > > Now they are chanting: down with Xi and down with CCP in Shanghai and other > cities.Well, we all know how THAT is going to end. And, the "efforts" (on both sides) will do nothing to effect covid in that country. It will continue as if the protests (and any repurcussions) had never occurred.
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 12:22:29 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 4:03:34 PM UTC+11, Don Y wrote: > > On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > > >> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > > >>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of > > >>>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their "system" is > > >>>> magnified. > > >>>> > > >>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective > > >>>> that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems an > > >>>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem > > >>>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the > > >>>> epidemic) > > >>>> > > >>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this > > >>>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" > > >>>> > > >>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even > > >>>> though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the > > >>>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably > > >>>> more benign than theirs? > > >>> > > >>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the > > >>> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so > > >>> that makes everything final. > > >> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. > > >> Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has > > >> to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... > > >> including foreign investors. > > >> > > >> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing > > >> center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the > > >> folks who support him? > > >> > > >> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are > > >> no other effective alternatives available. My understanding > > >> is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the > > >> vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal > > >> vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?) > > > > > > They have a high vaccination rate: > > > https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ > > > > So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more recent strains? > It's not a great vaccine. Indonesia bought a lot of it, and while it does offer some protection, quite a few vaccinated people caught Covid-19 and died.There is such a thing as racial response to vaccination. Some groups don't respond as well as others.> > It's a whole virus vaccine, and relatively minor mutations let the let the virus change it's shape enough to evade the antibodies it evokes.That's can be an asset of the whole virus vaccine because it also invokes antibody response against other capsid proteins that are conserved with the variants. The whole virus vaccine is a scatter gun, the mRNA vaccine is a sniper rifle.> > The western vaccines programmed your cells to produce just the original spike protein, which is fairly highly conserved, They aren't all that effective against the most recent strains, but the Moderna bivbalent vaccine programs your cells to produce a couple of different spike proteins, closer to those expressed by the more recent variants. I've had the vaccine, and I still haven't caught Covid-19 yet.The mRNA programs only a small area of muscle cells in the deltoid where it is injected. The proximity of a major lymph node nearby in the underarm guarantees the immune surveillance cells are going to pick it up. The immune system comes to the vaccine, the vaccine doesn't go to it. The mRNA burns out the affected muscle cell producing large quantities of membrane spike proteins. The cell is destroyed, but because it's in the muscle, it will be replaced by a new muscle cell, making everything good as new. That's another reason why the vaccine is injected into the muscle tissue. Many of the fool idiot ignoramus anti-vaxxers think the vaccine permeates every cell in the body, that is obviously untrue and removed from reality. Nothing in the vaccine circulates throughout the entire body. Now the vaccine induced inflammation, which is a term used to broadly describe immune response to the vaccine in all its varied forms, that does circulate throughout the body. But it's a lot less damaging than the real infection. It seems the Omicron and its follow-on variants are so mild it's not worth getting vaccinated against. But the health authorities are still recommending it, so be it.> > It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff. > > > > > Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let them run the place. > > > > I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their approach and "reward" them, justly. > Lock-downs don't help production. Neither do a lot of Covid-19 infections. > > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:29:42 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 12:22:29 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 4:03:34 PM UTC+11, Don Y wrote: > > > On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > > > >> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > >>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: > > > >>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of > > > >>>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their "system" is > > > >>>> magnified. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective > > > >>>> that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems an > > > >>>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem > > > >>>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the > > > >>>> epidemic) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this > > > >>>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" > > > >>>> > > > >>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even > > > >>>> though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the > > > >>>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably > > > >>>> more benign than theirs? > > > >>> > > > >>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the > > > >>> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so > > > >>> that makes everything final. > > > >> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. > > > >> Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has > > > >> to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... > > > >> including foreign investors. > > > >> > > > >> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing > > > >> center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the > > > >> folks who support him? > > > >> > > > >> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are > > > >> no other effective alternatives available. My understanding > > > >> is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the > > > >> vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal > > > >> vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?) > > > > > > > > They have a high vaccination rate: > > > > https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ > > > > > > So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more recent strains? > > It's not a great vaccine. Indonesia bought a lot of it, and while it does offer some protection, quite a few vaccinated people caught Covid-19 and died. > There is such a thing as racial response to vaccination. Some groups don't respond as well as others. > > > > It's a whole virus vaccine, and relatively minor mutations let the let the virus change it's shape enough to evade the antibodies it evokes. > That's can be an asset of the whole virus vaccine because it also invokes antibody response against other capsid proteins that are conserved with the variants. The whole virus vaccine is a scatter gun, the mRNA vaccine is a sniper rifle. > > > > The western vaccines programmed your cells to produce just the original spike protein, which is fairly highly conserved, They aren't all that effective against the most recent strains, but the Moderna bivbalent vaccine programs your cells to produce a couple of different spike proteins, closer to those expressed by the more recent variants. I've had the vaccine, and I still haven't caught Covid-19 yet. > > The mRNA programs only a small area of muscle cells in the deltoid where it is injected. The proximity of a major lymph node nearby in the underarm guarantees the immune surveillance cells are going to pick it up. The immune system comes to the vaccine, the vaccine doesn't go to it.A meaningless distinction. Vaccination is always localised, and the immune system produces a system wide response.> The mRNA burns out the affected muscle cell producing large quantities of membrane spike proteins.There's more than one mRA molecule involved, and more than one muscle cell. And it isn't obvious that the dose of mRNA molecules will "burn out the cell". Every cell nucleus produces a steady stream of different mRNAs, directing the cell machinery to produce the proteins it needs to keep running. The vaccine mRNA hijacks the cell machinery to produce a batch of spike protein, but the machinery should revert to normal once the vaccine mRNA has been dealt with the same why that the mRNA molecules generated by the nucleus are.> The cell is destroyed, but because it's in the muscle, it will be replaced by a new muscle cell, making everything good as new.If it were destroyed, it would be replaced,> That's another reason why the vaccine is injected into the muscle tissue. Many of the fool idiot ignoramus anti-vaxxers think the vaccine permeates every cell in the body, that is obviously untrue and removed from reality. Nothing in the vaccine circulates throughout the entire body. Now the vaccine induced inflammation, which is a term used to broadly describe immune response to the vaccine in all its varied forms, that does circulate throughout the body. But it's a lot less damaging than the real infection.The vaccine provokes the immune system to produce antibodies to the spike protein, amongst other things, and they all circulate throughout the whole body. Covid-19 programs infected cells to not only produce more Covid-19 viral particles, but also a couple of proteins that don't seem to help the immune immune system. I think of them as distracting it, but that's because I don't know all that much about the subject.> It seems the Omicron and its follow-on variants are so mild it's not worth getting vaccinated against. But the health authorities are still recommending it, so be it.Omicron and it's follow-on variants are still killing people in Australia. Most of them are elderly and a lot of them haven't been vaccinated, even though most people in Australia now have been https://www.health.gov.au/our-work/covid-19-vaccines/vaccination-numbers-and-statistics 95.9% of people over 16 years of age have had the two dose course.> > > It's hard to imagine "hubris" is driving their country off a cliff. > > > > > > > Dunno what they're thinking. Chinese know China better than we do, let them run the place. > > > > > > I suspect foreign investors will take heed of the inadequacy of their approach and "reward" them, justly. > > > > Lock-downs don't help production. Neither do a lot of Covid-19 infections.-- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
lørdag den 26. november 2022 kl. 18.27.19 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? > Of course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to > their "system" is magnified. > > But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly ineffective > that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately so? It seems > an inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing > seem to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the > epidemic) > > Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this > policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" > > In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- even > though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the > consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences > considerably more benign than theirs?I just read that in China they won't even show images of spectators at the world cup, They don't want the Chinese people to see that the rest of the world doesn't have such draconian anti covid measures, and start protesting ...
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On 11/28/2022 6:22 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> I just read that in China they won't even show images of spectators at the world cup, > They don't want the Chinese people to see that the rest of the world doesn't have such > draconian anti covid measures, and start protesting ...How's THAT working out for them? :>
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On 11/26/2022 4:05 PM, Don Y wrote:> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? Of >>> course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their >>> "system" is >>> magnified. >>> >>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly >>> ineffective that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately >>> so? It seems an >>> inordinately high price to pay (the damages their economy is seeing seem >>> to dwarf any of the measures put in place, here, at the peak of the >>> epidemic) >>> >>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and this >>> policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" >>> >>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- >>> even though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face the >>> consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences considerably >>> more benign than theirs? >> >> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip to the >> execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are the answer, so >> that makes everything final. > > But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. > Even if no one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has > to know that they will *look* stupid to anyone who cares... > including foreign investors.Conversely the Chinese leadership figures there was a huge cost in lives to America's more ad hoc approach to pandemic control. A million excess deaths over the past 2.5 years might have translated to 25 million there, _also_ would have probably not been good optics for a nation with the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward not too far in the rearview..> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing > center), is that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the > folks who support him? > > I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are > no other effective alternatives available. My understanding > is that vaccination rates (regardless of how effective the > vaccine is) are low, there. Why hasn't he mandated universal > vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution problems?)I recall one Chinese finance wonk opining that long Covid is going to be a serious long problem for Western economies. It's perhaps an overblown fear but seems to be one the Chinese leadership deeply harbors, also. But they're in a pickle, now. Zero-Covid has been very effective at limiting death toll but since they have been lackluster about pushing vaccines (for a variety of reasons including that many Chinese citizens are as uneducated and vaccine-hesitant as Americans..) they can't just stop because there are so many particularly elderly virus-naive people just waiting to get hit. Inhalablevaccines may help <https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-rolls-out-first-inhalable-covid-vaccine-2022-10-28/>
Reply by ●November 28, 20222022-11-28
On 11/28/2022 1:04 AM, Don Y wrote:> On 11/27/2022 10:16 PM, Ed Lee wrote: >> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:03:34 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote: >>> On 11/26/2022 3:20 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:05:55 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>>>> On 11/26/2022 1:03 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>>>>> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 12:27:19 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>> So, why is china stuck on these draconian "zero covid" policies? >>>>>>> Of course, in as populous a nation, the potential *cost* to their >>>>>>> "system" is magnified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, are their vaccines (and other remedies) so significantly >>>>>>> ineffective that they have to rely on avoidance disproportionately >>>>>>> so? It seems an inordinately high price to pay (the damages their >>>>>>> economy is seeing seem to dwarf any of the measures put in place, >>>>>>> here, at the peak of the epidemic) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or, is it all a matter of saving face: "I pushed this policy and >>>>>>> this policy is going to be THE solution, damn it!" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In The West, it seems like life is largely returning to normal -- >>>>>>> even though a threat persists. Are we just more willing to face >>>>>>> the consequences than china? Or, are our potential consequences >>>>>>> considerably more benign than theirs? >>>>>> >>>>>> There's no such thing as pushback in China, unless you want a trip >>>>>> to the execution ditch. Xi Jinping has decided that lockdowns are >>>>>> the answer, so that makes everything final. >>>>> But he must see there is a (huge) cost to that approach. Even if no >>>>> one can OPENLY criticize his policies, he has to know that they will >>>>> *look* stupid to anyone who cares... including foreign investors. >>>>> >>>>> If foreign companies pull out of China (as a manufacturing center), is >>>>> that going to be A Good Thing for him? And, the folks who support >>>>> him? >>>>> >>>>> I suspect he is committed to this approach because there are no other >>>>> effective alternatives available. My understanding is that vaccination >>>>> rates (regardless of how effective the vaccine is) are low, there. Why >>>>> hasn't he mandated universal vaccination? etc. (supply/distribution >>>>> problems?) >>>> >>>> They have a high vaccination rate: >>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/ >>> >>>> > So, is it a shit vaccine? Or, has it not been updated to reflect more >>> recent strains? >> >> Perhaps not as effective, but not really the issue. Even if they have >> top >> of the line mRNA vaccines, there will be certain amount of break-thru >> cases. >> Even 10s of thousands are small for a billion people. But Xi/CCP outlaws >> any case at all. The Emperor said zero and how dare you report it >> otherwise. > > As I said (below), it's hard to imagine this boils down to hubris. > > Surely, by now, Xi could have "fudged" a solution that allows him to save > face (claim victory) *and* alter the policy. He can't be THAT stupid > (he doesn't LOOK "orange")He isn't entirely supreme leader, of course. No dictator is really a law unto himself; China has a party leadership structure and corpo-state bureaucracy that also wields significant power of a more behind-the-scenes type. That is to say if a policy isn't at least somewhat beneficial to the gander then the goose will find it very difficult to maintain all by himself (there's probably some Chinese proverb that says something like that but I don't know it.)
