On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:29:32 -0500) it happened legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote in <3bn4pghrk12l7i45mkqkb538g497h5lnbn@4ax.com>:>I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where >possible, related files and programs where they can be found >using the minimum of reason. > >Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't >seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence >of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that >philosophy.It should be no problem on any decent Linuxx distro to make your own partitions and directory structure. And then use updatdb and locate to find files. panteltje20: ~ # locate -i lm317 /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switching-regulator-schematic.png /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/backup/LM317_switching-regulator-schematic.png /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_test_setup_img_2318.jpg /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_no_100nF_img_2320.jpg /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_no_.25_Ohm_img_2319.jpg /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_diagram_img_2316.jpg /usr/local/httpd/htdocs/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_final_img_2312.jpg /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_test_setup_img_2318.jpg /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_no_100nF_img_2320.jpg /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_no_.25_Ohm_img_2319.jpg /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_diagram_img_2316.jpg /home/ftp/pub/LM317_switcher/LM317_switcher_final_img_2312.jpg /root/compile/pantel/laser_arrow_com/LM317.pdf /root/download/html/LM317.pdf /root/download/html/LM317_switching-regulator-schematic.png /root/download/html/155585-da-01-en-SP_REG_LM317LZSTM.pdf panteltje20: ~ # locate -i lm317 | grep -i pdf /root/compile/pantel/laser_arrow_com/LM317.pdf /root/download/html/LM317.pdf /root/download/html/155585-da-01-en-SP_REG_LM317LZSTM.pdf But then I am always root. panteltje20: ~ # whoami root When I read about all that microsoft circus so sad, such a waste of time and bandwidth. This laptop I am now on runs Linux Slackware from 2011 panteltje20: ~ # uname -a Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux I can boot latest? debian too, but much is then screwed up like for example the screen color... So 10 years without updates and no problems! Only thing that is no longer working on some sites is the Seamonkey browser, too lazy to compile something more recent, My Raspberry Pi4s have a recent Chromium browser if I need one. Microsoft is just snake oil sales like F35. [and covid vaccins]. 'grml' was a good simple distro, runs on a real PC upstairs, is basically Debian for sysadmins. https://grml.org/ you can install to harddisk too. Slackware is much a one man show and internally consistent http://www.slackware.org/ Debian is easy for the not do much in depth ones but some thing are broken, updates are easy but may break things, Best is almost always to compile from source... But then again Unix you may have to have been with it from way back perhaps. But it is everywhere by now, even in space.
rant: filenames
Started by ●November 8, 2021
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote:> .... > I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where > possible, related files and programs where they can be found > using the minimum of reason. > > Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't > seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence > of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that > philosophy. > > RL >The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed. I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they know it. Dimiter ====================================================== Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com ====================================================== http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>:>The unix filenaming system is broken by design.It is super good!>Their file names are case dependent;And that is a GOOD thing! You need to learn how to search with locate -i As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm>Dimiter Popoff
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote in news:smtvrm$17cm$1@gioia.aioe.org:> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened > Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in > <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: > >>The unix filenaming system is broken by design. > > It is super good! > > >>Their file names are case dependent; > > And that is a GOOD thing! > You need to learn how to search with > locate -i > As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm > >>Dimiter Popoff >Just proved his meter is dim. Har har. He's probably an old Novell Network/OS programmer.
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff > <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: > >> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. > > It is super good!Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases. Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin alphabet for millenia.> > >> Their file names are case dependent; > > And that is a GOOD thing! > You need to learn how to search with > locate -i > As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm >Yeah, good thing you figured out an exception to cling to, see my comment above. Then the naming is not the only shortcoming of the unix filesystem, it (like that of windows) makes worst fit allocation impractical. The latter can be fixed by writing/adopting a well designed filesystem; the naming flaw cannot be fixed.
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:03:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smu3tn$8jl$1@dont-email.me>:>On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: >> >>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. >> >> It is super good! > > >Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases.Cool! Read: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/48770/how-to-match-case-insensitive-patterns-with-ls to list files ignoring case>Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin >alphabet for millenia. > >> >> >>> Their file names are case dependent; >> >> And that is a GOOD thing! >> You need to learn how to search with >> locate -i >> As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm >> > >Yeah, good thing you figured out an exception to cling to, >see my comment above. > >Then the naming is not the only shortcoming of the unix filesystem, >it (like that of windows) makes worst fit allocation impractical.You really need to read up on this stuff if you want to use it. I have NEVER encoutered a problem with Linux file systems, and tried many and use many. But MS windows crap filesystem as it comes with some USB sticks or is used by my Chinese digital TV receivers even limit file size to 4293402624 bytes. 4293402624 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_1.ts 41383680 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_2.ts -> 2^32 = 4294967296>The latter can be fixed by writing/adopting a well designed filesystem; >the naming flaw cannot be fixed.You are just blaming the car that you do not know how to drive.
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On 2021-11-15 18:03, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:> On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: >> >>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. >> >> It is super good! > > > Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases. > Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin > alphabet for millenia. >Now, now Dimiter, just because you can does not mean it's a good idea to do so. But I would resent any filesystem *preventing* me from doing so. Nothing in UNIX prevents you from naming your all your files in all upper case, should you want to. Choose your evil. Jeroen Belleman
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On 11/15/2021 19:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:03:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff > <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smu3tn$8jl$1@dont-email.me>: > >> On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >>> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. >>> >>> It is super good! >> >> >> Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases. > > Cool! > > Read: > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/48770/how-to-match-case-insensitive-patterns-with-ls > to list files ignoring caseYou don't have to convince me a solution can be programmed to just about any flaw, including the file naming in unix.> >> Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin >> alphabet for millenia. >> >>> >>> >>>> Their file names are case dependent; >>> >>> And that is a GOOD thing! >>> You need to learn how to search with >>> locate -i >>> As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm >>> >> >> Yeah, good thing you figured out an exception to cling to, >> see my comment above. >> >> Then the naming is not the only shortcoming of the unix filesystem, >> it (like that of windows) makes worst fit allocation impractical. > > You really need to read up on this stuff if you want to use it. > I have NEVER encoutered a problem with Linux file systems, and tried many and use many.Oh I am sure it works, in its flawed by design way. Not using "worst fit" for allocation brings just more fragmentation than there has to be which you probably have not even noticed - or did not know there was life without it. And you have learned to live with the flawed use of text.> > But MS windows crap filesystem as it comes with some USB sticks or is used by my Chinese digital TV receivers > even limit file size to 4293402624 bytes. > 4293402624 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_1.ts > 41383680 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_2.ts > > -> 2^32 = 4294967296I never intended to compare these two filesystems. The MS approach with file names is the correct one though, and the unix' use of text for file names is the flawed one, that much is obvious.> >> The latter can be fixed by writing/adopting a well designed filesystem; >> the naming flaw cannot be fixed. > > You are just blaming the car that you do not know how to drive. >Yeah, what do I know about filesystems. How many filesystems have you designed. I know you cannot switch off from fuming mode - your entering of which I predicted - so I suggest you just let it go, you don't really know what you are talking about. Have a nice evening.
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:03:14 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smu7d3$emg$1@dont-email.me>:>On 11/15/2021 19:40, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:03:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smu3tn$8jl$1@dont-email.me>: >> >>> On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >>>> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: >>>> >>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. >>>> >>>> It is super good! >>> >>> >>> Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases. >> >> Cool! >> >> Read: >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/48770/how-to-match-case-insensitive-patterns-with-ls >> to list files ignoring case > >You don't have to convince me a solution can be programmed to just about >any flaw, including the file naming in unix. > > >> >>> Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin >>> alphabet for millenia. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Their file names are case dependent; >>>> >>>> And that is a GOOD thing! >>>> You need to learn how to search with >>>> locate -i >>>> As you likely know mA is not the same as MA and mOhm is not MOhm >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, good thing you figured out an exception to cling to, >>> see my comment above. >>> >>> Then the naming is not the only shortcoming of the unix filesystem, >>> it (like that of windows) makes worst fit allocation impractical. >> >> You really need to read up on this stuff if you want to use it. >> I have NEVER encoutered a problem with Linux file systems, and tried many and use many. > >Oh I am sure it works, in its flawed by design way. Not using "worst >fit" for allocation brings just more fragmentation than there has to be >which you probably have not even noticed - or did not know there >was life without it. >And you have learned to live with the flawed use of text. > >> >> But MS windows crap filesystem as it comes with some USB sticks or is used by my Chinese digital TV receivers >> even limit file size to 4293402624 bytes. >> 4293402624 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_1.ts >> 41383680 Jul 8 2020 /mnt/sda2/video/satellite/magnum_3x_part_2.ts >> >> -> 2^32 = 4294967296 > >I never intended to compare these two filesystems. The MS approach with >file names is the correct one though, and the unix' use of text for file >names is the flawed one, that much is obvious. > >> >>> The latter can be fixed by writing/adopting a well designed filesystem; >>> the naming flaw cannot be fixed. >> >> You are just blaming the car that you do not know how to drive. >> > >Yeah, what do I know about filesystems. How many filesystems have >you designed. > >I know you cannot switch off from fuming mode - your entering of which I >predicted - so I suggest you just let it go, you don't really know what >you are talking about. > >Have a nice evening.I am not in fuming mode, just trying to teach you, but you seemingly just post insults to get a response as you feel so lonely (your own words in previous posts) Maybe get a cat or dog ? Or go to bar and try it there? So you almost qualify for the filter now.
Reply by ●November 15, 20212021-11-15
On 11/15/2021 19:56, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> On 2021-11-15 18:03, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: >> On 11/15/2021 17:51, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:35:02 +0200) it happened >>> Dimiter_Popoff >>> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <smtun7$6v6$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. >>> >>> It is super good! >> >> >> Yeah, you can have 512 files named Panteltie using different cases. >> Very advanced, how stupid people have been to stick to the Latin >> alphabet for millenia. >> > > Now, now Dimiter, just because you can does not mean it's a good > idea to do so. But I would resent any filesystem *preventing* me > from doing so. Nothing in UNIX prevents you from naming your all > your files in all upper case, should you want to. Choose your evil. > > Jeroen Belleman >File names are text entities and as such they are for human consumption. And how humans use text has been pretty well established for a long time. The Unix filesystem breaks these rules. Indeed you can use only upper or only lower case to work around that so you don't inadvertently access one of two very similar - in both name and contents - files; but then you lose the use of capitalization which humans are used to. So the correct way of naming files is obviously to preserve the case information while treating the names uniquely regardless of case. It even costs nearly nothing in terms of CPU power for search if data are organized in a practical way. E.g. in dps the file names in a directory entry are stored all upper (or was it lower, I did it years ago) case and the case information is stored separately, a bit per character. So dps can search in a machine friendly way - just comparing the text part - and humans can read the name with cases as it is. Even case dependent search does not cost more than a single longword compare more for every 32 characters of the name.
