On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:22:03 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<smumie$g4d$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:29:32 -0500) it happened legg
>> <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote in <3bn4pghrk12l7i45mkqkb538g497h5lnbn@4ax.com>:
>> 
>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where
>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found
>>> using the minimum of reason.
>>>
>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't
>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence
>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that
>>> philosophy.

At least get the quoting right, I did not write that.

On 11/16/2021 2:39, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 16/11/21 10:21 am, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> On 11/16/2021 1:00, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>> I have a little script called "mved" that makes it trivial to 
>>> mass-rename files, e.g. "mved \*.jpeg \*.jpg" shortens the 
>>> extensions. It supports multiple wildcards also, and can create 
>>> directories where needed. For for example if I have a bunch of 
>>> magazine PDFs called for example "Your Hobby - Sep 2019.pdf", I can say:
>>>
>>> $ mved '* - * *.pdf' 'Your Hobby/\3/\3-\2 Your Hobby.pdf'
>>
>> The rename under dps can do much of that even without scripting,
> 
> That's just because someone else wrote `chg' for you - perhaps it does 
> in fact use scripting anyhow. `mved' works like a builtin, but it's not, 
> because it doesn't need to be, as is the Unix way. "mv" and "cp" aren't 
> builtin either.

Well someone wrote it for me, though it was not "someone else" :-).
In fact chg (like anything else) just uses the system call for
directory search, which someone (not else :) wrote so it can do
a lot of pretty sophisticated things.

>
> 
> In German, the "&szlig;" character matches "ss" - but not in other locales. Do 
> you want your filesystem to do that for you as well?

While I lived in Germany I had learned a key combination turning a
German keyboard (qwertz) into a normal qwerty one so I could use it
on occasions I needed to. Now my German is pretty decent, but can
you believe I thought the "sz" symbol printed on the key where
it was (IIRC it was on shift-2 or something) stood for a Greek beta...
I thought that for years until someone mentioned it.

On 16/11/21 10:21 am, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 11/16/2021 1:00, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> I have a little script called "mved" that makes it trivial to 
>> mass-rename files, e.g. "mved \*.jpeg \*.jpg" shortens the extensions. 
>> It supports multiple wildcards also, and can create directories where 
>> needed. For for example if I have a bunch of magazine PDFs called for 
>> example "Your Hobby - Sep 2019.pdf", I can say:
>>
>> $ mved '* - * *.pdf' 'Your Hobby/\3/\3-\2 Your Hobby.pdf'
> 
> The rename under dps can do much of that even without scripting,

That's just because someone else wrote `chg' for you - perhaps it does 
in fact use scripting anyhow. `mved' works like a builtin, but it's not, 
because it doesn't need to be, as is the Unix way. "mv" and "cp" aren't 
builtin either.

> So do I. I just want it also to detect name duplications where yours
> would not.

Fair. I recall cygwin tried to handle Unix semantics under DOS/Windows. 
it can get ugly though... uglier than just not attempting it.

>> It is the job of a shell's wildcard expansion to do case-insensitive 
>> matching, if necessary.
> 
> Well it is a way of doing it. It adds some overhead to the user,

Yes, it does. And it doesn't work in File Save/Open dialogs, unless they 
implement the same semantics.

> Consider dictating over the phone a unix name like
> ThIs_Is_mE.jPg . Text has evolved to what we have today over
> the millennia for a reason.

If the case matters, you need to read it explicitly. If it doesn't, you 
shouldn't write something like that in the first place. No sympathy for 
masochists. If someone sends you crap like that, either hit them or 
rename it yourself :)

I had the same sort of thing with a license code system I developed. It 
was important for someone to be able to read a label and type in the 
code correctly. It's amazing how many characters can appear very 
similar, especially to someone with weak eyesight. I mean it's not just 
0 vs O (zero vs capital-O), it's many other alphanumeric characters as 
well (5/S, 2/Z, etc). Similarly when dictating over a phone ("Oh" - "did 
you mean zero or O", etc).

In German, the "&szlig;" character matches "ss" - but not in other locales. Do 
you want your filesystem to do that for you as well?

It's just not possible to avoid the need to give literal 
transliterations, but you can certainly create a lot of annoyance and 
other errors in the process.

It's better if the computer simply doesn't interfere.

CH.

tirsdag den 16. november 2021 kl. 00.21.40 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
> On 11/16/2021 1:00, Clifford Heath wrote: 
> > On 16/11/21 9:23 am, Dimiter_Popoff wrote: 
> >> On 11/16/2021 0:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 22.55.44 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff: 
> >>>> On 11/15/2021 23:29, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote: 
> >>>>>> On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote: 
> >>>>>>> .... 
> >>>>>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where 
> >>>>>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found 
> >>>>>>> using the minimum of reason. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't 
> >>>>>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence 
> >>>>>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that 
> >>>>>>> philosophy. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> RL 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names 
> >>>>>> are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of 
> >>>>>> legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode 
> >>>>>> but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they 
> >>>>>> know it. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Fuming?  Why would anyone want a case-insensitive file system? 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> There's nothing special about ASCII after all--if you like case 
> >>>>> insensitivity, how about allowing all Unicode glyphs that look 
> >>>>> alike to 
> >>>>> sort the same way too? 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> No thanks. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Cheers 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Phil Hobbs 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> Why do you need the case sensitivity? To me, it is normal to 
> >>>> say copy *.jpg and this to copy all .jpg and all .JPG files, 
> >>>> for instance. 
> >>> 
> >>> you are asking for 0x6a,0x70,0x67 and 0x4a,0x50,0x47 to be the same 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Not at all. I am asking .JPG and .jpg to be treated the same. 
> > 
> > What about .jpeg and .JPEG as well? The three-character versions only 
> > came into use because of the old broken DOS filesystem that only 
> > supported three-character extensions.
> Well how is this relevant? We are only talking about case data.
> > 
> > I have a little script called "mved" that makes it trivial to 
> > mass-rename files, e.g. "mved \*.jpeg \*.jpg" shortens the extensions. 
> > It supports multiple wildcards also, and can create directories where 
> > needed. For for example if I have a bunch of magazine PDFs called for 
> > example "Your Hobby - Sep 2019.pdf", I can say: 
> > 
> > $ mved '* - * *.pdf' 'Your Hobby/\3/\3-\2 Your Hobby.pdf'
> The rename under dps can do much of that even without scripting, 
> you can say chg abc*zz.xxx .zzz etc. But this is not what we are 
> talking about.
> > 
> > to create the year subdirectory and rename the files to put the year and 
> > month first in those directories. I need to create a special 
> > substitution to match month names and convert to 2-digit month numbers. 
> > 
> > mved used to be a Bash script, but as it grew more difficult to handle 
> > all the possible magic characters I rewrote it in Ruby (a standard or 
> > easy install on all systems I use). I have this sym-linked as ~/bin/mved: 
> > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cs9fw6hpi0pemp/mved.rb?dl=0> 
> > 
> > Regardless of all this, I want my filesystem to store what I tell it to 
> > store, not to munge or reject a filename I choose to use. Unix 
> > filesystems reject only two codepoints: ASCII nul, and forward-slash. 
> > Everything else is preserved.
> So do I. I just want it also to detect name duplications where yours 
> would not.
> > 
> > It is the job of a shell's wildcard expansion to do case-insensitive 
> > matching, if necessary.
> Well it is a way of doing it. It adds some overhead to the user, to 
> which apparently unix users - the programmer kind - are used to and 
> do not mind. The general user would though. 
> 
> Consider dictating over the phone a unix name like 
> ThIs_Is_mE.jPg . 

so you want to ignore case, you also want  assume _ means space?

>Text has evolved to what we have today over 
> the millennia for a reason.

and in text case also matters

On 11/16/2021 1:00, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 16/11/21 9:23 am, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> On 11/16/2021 0:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 22.55.44 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
>>>> On 11/15/2021 23:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote:
>>>>>>> ....
>>>>>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where
>>>>>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found
>>>>>>> using the minimum of reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't
>>>>>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence
>>>>>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that
>>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names
>>>>>> are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of
>>>>>> legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode
>>>>>> but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they
>>>>>> know it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fuming?&nbsp; Why would anyone want a case-insensitive file system?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's nothing special about ASCII after all--if you like case
>>>>> insensitivity, how about allowing all Unicode glyphs that look 
>>>>> alike to
>>>>> sort the same way too?
>>>>>
>>>>> No thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>
>>>> Why do you need the case sensitivity? To me, it is normal to
>>>> say copy *.jpg and this to copy all .jpg and all .JPG files,
>>>> for instance.
>>>
>>> you are asking for 0x6a,0x70,0x67 and 0x4a,0x50,0x47 to be the same
>>>
>>
>> Not at all. I am asking .JPG and .jpg to be treated the same.
> 
> What about .jpeg and .JPEG as well? The three-character versions only 
> came into use because of the old broken DOS filesystem that only 
> supported three-character extensions.
Well how is this relevant? We are only talking about case data.
> 
> I have a little script called "mved" that makes it trivial to 
> mass-rename files, e.g. "mved \*.jpeg \*.jpg" shortens the extensions. 
> It supports multiple wildcards also, and can create directories where 
> needed. For for example if I have a bunch of magazine PDFs called for 
> example "Your Hobby - Sep 2019.pdf", I can say:
> 
> $ mved '* - * *.pdf' 'Your Hobby/\3/\3-\2 Your Hobby.pdf'

The rename under dps can do much of that even without scripting,
you can say chg abc*zz.xxx .zzz etc. But this is not what we are
talking about.

> 
> to create the year subdirectory and rename the files to put the year and 
> month first in those directories. I need to create a special 
> substitution to match month names and convert to 2-digit month numbers.
> 
> mved used to be a Bash script, but as it grew more difficult to handle 
> all the possible magic characters I rewrote it in Ruby (a standard or 
> easy install on all systems I use). I have this sym-linked as ~/bin/mved:
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cs9fw6hpi0pemp/mved.rb?dl=0>
> 
> Regardless of all this, I want my filesystem to store what I tell it to 
> store, not to munge or reject a filename I choose to use. Unix 
> filesystems reject only two codepoints: ASCII nul, and forward-slash. 
> Everything else is preserved.

So do I. I just want it also to detect name duplications where yours
would not.

> 
> It is the job of a shell's wildcard expansion to do case-insensitive 
> matching, if necessary.

Well it is a way of doing it. It adds some overhead to the user, to
which apparently unix users - the programmer kind - are used to and
do not mind. The general user would though.

Consider dictating over the phone a unix name like
ThIs_Is_mE.jPg . Text has evolved to what we have today over
the millennia for a reason.

On 16/11/21 9:23 am, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 11/16/2021 0:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 22.55.44 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
>>> On 11/15/2021 23:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote:
>>>>>> ....
>>>>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where
>>>>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found
>>>>>> using the minimum of reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't
>>>>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence
>>>>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that
>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RL
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names
>>>>> are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of
>>>>> legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode
>>>>> but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they
>>>>> know it.
>>>>
>>>> Fuming?&nbsp; Why would anyone want a case-insensitive file system?
>>>>
>>>> There's nothing special about ASCII after all--if you like case
>>>> insensitivity, how about allowing all Unicode glyphs that look alike to
>>>> sort the same way too?
>>>>
>>>> No thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>> Why do you need the case sensitivity? To me, it is normal to
>>> say copy *.jpg and this to copy all .jpg and all .JPG files,
>>> for instance.
>>
>> you are asking for 0x6a,0x70,0x67 and 0x4a,0x50,0x47 to be the same
>>
> 
> Not at all. I am asking .JPG and .jpg to be treated the same.

What about .jpeg and .JPEG as well? The three-character versions only 
came into use because of the old broken DOS filesystem that only 
supported three-character extensions.

I have a little script called "mved" that makes it trivial to 
mass-rename files, e.g. "mved \*.jpeg \*.jpg" shortens the extensions. 
It supports multiple wildcards also, and can create directories where 
needed. For for example if I have a bunch of magazine PDFs called for 
example "Your Hobby - Sep 2019.pdf", I can say:

$ mved '* - * *.pdf' 'Your Hobby/\3/\3-\2 Your Hobby.pdf'

to create the year subdirectory and rename the files to put the year and 
month first in those directories. I need to create a special 
substitution to match month names and convert to 2-digit month numbers.

mved used to be a Bash script, but as it grew more difficult to handle 
all the possible magic characters I rewrote it in Ruby (a standard or 
easy install on all systems I use). I have this sym-linked as ~/bin/mved:
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cs9fw6hpi0pemp/mved.rb?dl=0>

Regardless of all this, I want my filesystem to store what I tell it to 
store, not to munge or reject a filename I choose to use. Unix 
filesystems reject only two codepoints: ASCII nul, and forward-slash. 
Everything else is preserved.

It is the job of a shell's wildcard expansion to do case-insensitive 
matching, if necessary.

mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 23.54.39 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
> On 11/16/2021 0:39, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 23.23.15 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff: 
> >> On 11/16/2021 0:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> >>> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 22.55.44 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff: 
> >>>> On 11/15/2021 23:29, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
> >>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote: 
> >>>>>> On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote: 
> >>>>>>> .... 
> >>>>>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where 
> >>>>>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found 
> >>>>>>> using the minimum of reason. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't 
> >>>>>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence 
> >>>>>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that 
> >>>>>>> philosophy. 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> RL 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names 
> >>>>>> are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of 
> >>>>>> legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed. 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode 
> >>>>>> but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they 
> >>>>>> know it. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Fuming? Why would anyone want a case-insensitive file system? 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> There's nothing special about ASCII after all--if you like case 
> >>>>> insensitivity, how about allowing all Unicode glyphs that look alike to 
> >>>>> sort the same way too? 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> No thanks. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Cheers 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Phil Hobbs 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> Why do you need the case sensitivity? To me, it is normal to 
> >>>> say copy *.jpg and this to copy all .jpg and all .JPG files, 
> >>>> for instance. 
> >>> 
> >>> you are asking for 0x6a,0x70,0x67 and 0x4a,0x50,0x47 to be the same 
> >>> 
> >> Not at all. I am asking .JPG and .jpg to be treated the same. 
> >> How you encode these is up to a very small proportion of the 
> >> human population, it has been to me for example 
> >> 
> >> [Here is how it 
> >> goes: .jpg becomes 
> >> 04 2e 6a 70 67 20 20 20 00 00 00 00 
> >> .JPG becomes 
> >> 04 2e 6a 70 67 20 20 20 38 00 00 00 
> > 
> > if you change it to jpg instead of JPG... 
> > 
> >> 
> >> (in case you wonder about the excessive bytes - 
> >> they are to keep things longword aligned). ] 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Humans read text, not bytes. File names (any names, really) 
> >> are text. 
> > 
> > j is not the same as J 
> > 
> >
> j is not the same as J indeed. 
> Now please read out loud 
> John john JOHN JOhn and listen to what came out.

djon

On 11/16/2021 0:39, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 23.23.15 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
>> On 11/16/2021 0:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> mandag den 15. november 2021 kl. 22.55.44 UTC+1 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
>>>> On 11/15/2021 23:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2021 15:29, legg wrote:
>>>>>>> ....
>>>>>>> I've always created my own directory structure, holding, where
>>>>>>> possible, related files and programs where they can be found
>>>>>>> using the minimum of reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strangely, a ecent Linux distro that I'm trying to adopt doesn't
>>>>>>> seem to allow this - even going so far as to deny the existence
>>>>>>> of navigable disc and directory structures. Can't fathom that
>>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The unix filenaming system is broken by design. Their file names
>>>>>> are case dependent; and this is so deeply entrenched because of
>>>>>> legacy etc. there is zero chance this will ever be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know this post of mine will put the linux users in fuming mode
>>>>>> but it is the reality - and they will be fuming because they
>>>>>> know it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fuming? Why would anyone want a case-insensitive file system?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's nothing special about ASCII after all--if you like case
>>>>> insensitivity, how about allowing all Unicode glyphs that look alike to
>>>>> sort the same way too?
>>>>>
>>>>> No thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>
>>>> Why do you need the case sensitivity? To me, it is normal to
>>>> say copy *.jpg and this to copy all .jpg and all .JPG files,
>>>> for instance.
>>>
>>> you are asking for 0x6a,0x70,0x67 and 0x4a,0x50,0x47 to be the same
>>>
>> Not at all. I am asking .JPG and .jpg to be treated the same.
>> How you encode these is up to a very small proportion of the
>> human population, it has been to me for example
>>
>> [Here is how it
>> goes: .jpg becomes
>> 04 2e 6a 70 67 20 20 20 00 00 00 00
>> .JPG becomes
>> 04 2e 6a 70 67 20 20 20 38 00 00 00
> 
> if you change it to jpg instead of JPG...
> 
>>
>> (in case you wonder about the excessive bytes -
>> they are to keep things longword aligned). ]
>>
>>
>> Humans read text, not bytes. File names (any names, really)
>> are text.
> 
> j is not the same as J
> 
> 

j is not the same as J indeed.
Now please read out loud
John john JOHN JOhn and listen to what came out.