Motion in support or reject EV charging chip reader?

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 9:25:19 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 9:11 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 9:01:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> >> On 10/10/2021 8:45 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >>> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 8:37:32 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> >>>> On 10/10/2021 2:27 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >>>>> 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, 
> >>>>> when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. 
> >>>> Never use a credit card as it has to be in *someone's* name (the 
> >>>> person to whom the credit is being EXTENDED). Instead, use a prepaid 
> >>>> debit card (which can be purchased as commodities). But, the fee for 
> >>>> doing so can be high. 
> >>> 
> >>> Yes, i do mean debit cards. I still have some balance on the stimulus 
> >>> cards for that purpose. I think only the IRS have the info about me 
> >>> linking to the cards. 
> >> Are you *sure* that data will stay private? The amount of stimulus you 
> >> received *may* contain sensitive information (if you are an outlier). But, 
> >> the fact that you received it likely isn't. 
> > 
> > IRS is less likely to sell the data for profit. Same can't be said about 
> > EvGo. Their customer data might be the only thing valuable in their 
> > business.
> They may GIVE it away for some specific research in EV usage patterns 
> (conducted as a prelude to instituting a new "gas tax" or "EV tax"). 
> "Do EV users make greater use of the roadways than regular ICE vehicles?"
> >> And, every vendor where you've used that card provides a hint as to your 
> >> identity. 
> > 
> > Not as much as the issuer.
> Do you think Microsoft (IE, Edge, etc.) is the entity that is distributing 
> data from your browsing habits? Or, do you think the WEB SITES are 
> kabitzing about your visits?

My main concern is EvGo, which i have to use in certain location.  Their pricing is not competitive.  Their business is losing money.  I can image one day that they will just sell the customer data and liquidate everything else.  Second concern is ChargePoint, which i use more often, but their business might survive better.


> >> Plan on selling the vehicle when the card runs out? 
> > 
> > Buy another debit card.
> Will the issuing entity be more or less likely than the IRS to "sell (or 
> otherwise profit) from that data"?
> >> What if they start collecting the equivalent of an "excise tax" for road 
> >> usage AT the pump. And also read your odometer annually to determine your 
> >> "road usage" -- allowing you to deduct those taxes paid at 
> >> non-home-charging locations (so they don't have to require your home 
> >> charger to collect those taxes) from your measured usage. 
> > 
> > Actually, that can be done via CAN on ChaDeMod, if they really want it.
> Oh, you can *bet* they'll want it! Esp as the share of EVs increases! 
> One thing pols are good at is ensuring their revenue streams remain 
> intact -- esp if THEY are the ones who write the laws! 
> 
> And, if they are like most, they will find a way of rationalizing taking 
> some of those "savings" that may have influenced your EV purchase decision 
> for their own benefit!

But CDM is going away, they can't get it with CCS.

On 10/10/2021 9:33 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> Imagine getting an annual bill for your "gas tax alternative".
>> States collect up to ~60c/mile for gas tax.  If you drove
>> 12000 miles annually, that would be a $7200 bill ("payable in
>> four installments").
>>
>> I wonder how many folks would be prepared for such an outlay?
> 
> Sorry, that should be 60c/Gal.  And, most ICEs probably get ~30MPG
> so 3c/mile effective rate.  $360 per year.

Christ!  My math is really wonked!  (just got out of bed).
60cpG/30MPG == 2c/mile.  Makes the 8c look even worse!

[Feds already get 18c/mi; the rest is your "local gummit's greed"]

> [There are already proposals in the works for 8c/mile in some places!]

On 10/10/2021 9:36 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 9:33 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> Imagine getting an annual bill for your "gas tax alternative".
>>> States collect up to ~60c/mile for gas tax.  If you drove
>>> 12000 miles annually, that would be a $7200 bill ("payable in
>>> four installments").
>>>
>>> I wonder how many folks would be prepared for such an outlay?
>>
>> Sorry, that should be 60c/Gal.  And, most ICEs probably get ~30MPG
>> so 3c/mile effective rate.  $360 per year.
> 
> Christ!  My math is really wonked!  (just got out of bed).
> 60cpG/30MPG == 2c/mile.  Makes the 8c look even worse!
> 
> [Feds already get 18c/mi; the rest is your "local gummit's greed"]

18c/G.

I give up!  I'm headed BACK to bed!  :<

>> [There are already proposals in the works for 8c/mile in some places!]

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 9:36:54 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 9:33 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >> Imagine getting an annual bill for your "gas tax alternative". 
> >> States collect up to ~60c/mile for gas tax. If you drove 
> >> 12000 miles annually, that would be a $7200 bill ("payable in 
> >> four installments"). 
> >> 
> >> I wonder how many folks would be prepared for such an outlay? 
> > 
> > Sorry, that should be 60c/Gal. And, most ICEs probably get ~30MPG 
> > so 3c/mile effective rate. $360 per year.
> Christ! My math is really wonked! (just got out of bed). 
> 60cpG/30MPG == 2c/mile. Makes the 8c look even worse! 
> 
> [Feds already get 18c/mi; the rest is your "local gummit's greed"]
> > [There are already proposals in the works for 8c/mile in some places!]

Yes, at some point, they will have to tax the charging stations, just like the gas stations.  But they are still in the "bait" mode, as in "bait and switch" now.  So, CalTran is still giving negative tax.  Namely, selling below cost, tax included.

Nothing wrong with taking advantages of the inefficient government policy, and they really want us to do so.

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 12:43:58 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 9:36:54 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > On 10/10/2021 9:33 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> > >> Imagine getting an annual bill for your "gas tax alternative". 
> > >> States collect up to ~60c/mile for gas tax. If you drove 
> > >> 12000 miles annually, that would be a $7200 bill ("payable in 
> > >> four installments"). 
> > >> 
> > >> I wonder how many folks would be prepared for such an outlay? 
> > > 
> > > Sorry, that should be 60c/Gal. And, most ICEs probably get ~30MPG 
> > > so 3c/mile effective rate. $360 per year. 
> > Christ! My math is really wonked! (just got out of bed). 
> > 60cpG/30MPG == 2c/mile. Makes the 8c look even worse! 
> > 
> > [Feds already get 18c/mi; the rest is your "local gummit's greed"] 
> > > [There are already proposals in the works for 8c/mile in some places!]
> Yes, at some point, they will have to tax the charging stations, just like the gas stations. But they are still in the "bait" mode, as in "bait and switch" now. So, CalTran is still giving negative tax. Namely, selling below cost, tax included. 
> 
> Nothing wrong with taking advantages of the inefficient government policy, and they really want us to do so.

I think they will simply impose a fixed tax on EVs.  Why do I think that?  Because many states are already doing it!  So much work and bother to tax chargers, especially when most charging is done at home.  Once people are charging at home any politician who tries to get a taxpayer to install the equipment required to track that charging will be beaten, lynched and not reelected, not necessarily in that order.  

The tax may be proportional to the value of the vehicle (seems a bit more fair) or a fixed tax on all vehicles.  But Virginia has such a proportional car tax.  A couple of decades ago a governor got elected by promising to eliminate that tax.  He got the legislature to scale it back over five years, but it was complicated by the fact that this tax went to the counties, so they had the state reimburse the counties for the lost tax revenue!  No, car taxes are not popular at all.  But then VA over did it with the tax being something like 5% every year.  Pretty crazy, no?  At least the EV tax would only need to be a couple of hundred dollars per year even in high tax states like California to cover the lost gas tax.  

-- 

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 10/10/2021 9:43 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> Yes, at some point, they will have to tax the charging stations, just like
> the gas stations.  But they are still in the "bait" mode, as in "bait and
> switch" now.  So, CalTran is still giving negative tax.  Namely, selling
> below cost, tax included.
> 
> Nothing wrong with taking advantages of the inefficient government policy,
> and they really want us to do so.

Sure.  Drug dealers also give away freebies.

You'll note that the practice doesn't *continue*!  :>

There is already a push in the "Infrastructure Bill" to start
these types of programs.

I imagine state gummits will also piggyback their tax structure
on whatever the feds do.  And, states have easy access to the vehicular
fleet -- annual registrations, "emissions testing", inspections, etc.

So, even if the car doesn't "tattle" on your usage, there are many
other ways to get access to that information.  E.g., newer cars
don't need an emissions test, here -- the car checks itself.  If
the car can't check itself, then there are costs incurred to
manually check them.

And, if there is a financial incentive gather mileage data, you can
bet the feds and states will find ways of closing obvious loopholes
(like home charging).

Here (and in a few other places I've lived), cars are already subject
to "property tax" -- so, a new car's registration cost is many hundreds
of dollars (depending on value of car).  That is reduced, over time,
to reflect the depreciated value of that "property".  (A strong
incentive to hold onto an older vehicle!)

[Trucks (trailers) have odometers in the wheel hubs.  Does no one
look at them?]

And, a tax-per-mile is easy for The Public to wrap its head around.
"Cars that drive more should PAY more" (something that a gas tax
doesn't address)

<https://www.metromile.com/blog/what-is-the-pay-per-mile-tax-and-how-does-it-work/>

(note reference to "telematics")

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Again:
>>
>>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB&#146;s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs"
>>
>>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html
>>
>>For:
>>
>>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes.
>>
>>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID.  $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable.
>
> Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger
> King?

One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas
at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a
payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a
credit card, debit card).  One exception is for cars leased including
gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase
on your car's account.

With EV chargers, it is different.  Or actually, only that last option
exists.  There is no advertised price at the charging station, but
rather you have a contract with some company that determines your
rate structure and handles your payments.  There are several such
companies, and they can offer different contract options.
So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your
neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic
payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the
charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging
station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract.
(even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your
contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc)

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: 
> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee 
> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> >>Again:
> >> 
> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB&rsquo;s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" 
> >> 
> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html 
> >> 
> >>For: 
> >>
> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. 
> >>
> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. 
> >
> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger 
> > King? 
> 
> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas 
> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a 
> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a 
> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including 
> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase 
> on your car's account. 
> 
> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option 
> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but 
> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your 
> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such 
> companies, and they can offer different contract options. 
> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your 
> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic 
> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the 
> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging 
> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. 
> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your 
> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc)

Not sure what you are trying to say.  I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc.  Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices).  Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so.  But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. 

What I'm wondering about is if there will be a push from the electric utilities to be involved.  I don't know how significant daytime EV charging will be ultimately in the grid plans, but I can see utilities wanting to both have influence and be getting a slice of that pie.  But they are very risk adverse, so they may be content to hang at the fringes and simply be a wholesaler... at least until the dust settles a lot more. 

-- 

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 2:16:05 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: 
> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee 
> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> >>Again:
> >> 
> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB&rsquo;s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" 
> >> 
> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html 
> >> 
> >>For: 
> >>
> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. 
> >>
> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. 
> >
> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger 
> > King? 
> 
> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas 
> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a 
> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a 
> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including 
> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase 
> on your car's account. 
> 
> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option 
> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but 
> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your 
> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such 
> companies, and they can offer different contract options. 
> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your 
> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic 
> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the 
> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging 
> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. 
> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your 
> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc)

EvGo does offer discount rate for monthly subscription, frequent charger, etc, if you are willing to be tracked by using their card.  However, i am more than happy to pay a bit more to be opted out of their tracking.  Currently, most of their machines have chip reader.  CARB wants to assure that the anonymous option is not taken away.

Incidently, many of ChargePoint's chargers do not have chip reader, but all have RFID readers, even for free stations.  Perhaps there should be an exception for free chargers, since their only incentive is collecting big data in exchange for free electrons.

I am writing to CARB.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: 
>> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee 
>> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >>Again:
>> >> 
>> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB&rsquo;s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" 
>> >> 
>> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html 
>> >> 
>> >>For: 
>> >>
>> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. 
>> >>
>> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. 
>> >
>> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger 
>> > King? 
>> 
>> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas 
>> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a 
>> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a 
>> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including 
>> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase 
>> on your car's account. 
>> 
>> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option 
>> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but 
>> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your 
>> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such 
>> companies, and they can offer different contract options. 
>> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your 
>> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic 
>> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the 
>> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging 
>> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. 
>> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your 
>> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc)
>
> Not sure what you are trying to say.  I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc.  Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices).  Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so.  But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. 

What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a
place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price.  It is more like
a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your
contract with the supplier.  That is not the guy who installs and operates
the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that
sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure.
Some calls may be free while others aren't.

Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card,
you can't pay for an EV charge.  You only pay for the total service
you had during e.g. a month.