On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 1:28:13 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> Alternatively, solar during the day and hydro at night and bio-diesel backup. The site i am thinking about is next to a body of water and plenty of land for solar. Just pump water up the hill with the sun and hydro-electric when the sun is resting.Sounds great. Everyone for miles around can drive to this charger as long as they get home with enough charge to return to charge the next day. How about storing charge in batteries instead of hydro? Then you can put the chargers anywhere you want. The batteries can even be built into the car and moved around with the vehicle! I need to patent that idea!!! -- Rick C. ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Motion in support or reject EV charging chip reader?
Started by ●October 10, 2021
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > system you might as well go all the wayMaybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want.
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:32:14 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 1:28:13 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > Alternatively, solar during the day and hydro at night and bio-diesel backup. The site i am thinking about is next to a body of water and plenty of land for solar. Just pump water up the hill with the sun and hydro-electric when the sun is resting. > Sounds great. Everyone for miles around can drive to this charger as long as they get home with enough charge to return to charge the next day. > > How about storing charge in batteries instead of hydro? Then you can put the chargers anywhere you want. The batteries can even be built into the car and moved around with the vehicle! I need to patent that idea!!!Water is cleaner than Lithium. Many critical sites happen to be near body of water.
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 09:05:32 UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: ..> Sure, sounds great. Let us know when you've completed that. lol Why not have the cars drive themselves instead. They are already mobile. That part Tesla has in place already. They just need the robot to plug in the cable. You should solve that for them.... Tesla's already done it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 7:38:02 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 09:05:32 UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > .. > > Sure, sounds great. Let us know when you've completed that. lol Why not have the cars drive themselves instead. They are already mobile. That part Tesla has in place already. They just need the robot to plug in the cable. You should solve that for them. > ... > Tesla's already done it: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YIYeah, but it's going to take Ed Lee to commercialize it which he won't do because he's going to build the Jules Verne flying monkey charger powered by geothermal/wave/hydro/wind/solar/highway vibration energy. -- Rick C. --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > system you might as well go all the way > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want.and waste energy, time, and batteries, ... make the plug long enough to reach a few spots and charge by the minute for parking there when you are not charging
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 7:53:37 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> > make the plug long enough to reach a few spots and charge by the minute for parking there when you are not chargingYes, that's what Tesla does, 10 or 5 minute grace and then $1 a minute. Ed Lee has many silly ideas all based around his personal preferences which are not shared by many, so not likely to be implemented. -- Rick C. --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > > system you might as well go all the way > > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want. > and waste energy, time, and batteries, ... > > make the plug long enough to reach a few spots and charge by the minute for parking there when you are not chargingThat's rather impossible for DCFC's thick cable.
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > > system you might as well go all the way > > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want. > and waste energy, time, and batteries, ...The goal is to provide 20 to 30 miles out of the site. So, perhaps 10kWHr of local storage. After that, you are dropped to the end of the queue.
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.36.59 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > > > system you might as well go all the way > > > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > > > > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want. > > and waste energy, time, and batteries, ... > The goal is to provide 20 to 30 miles out of the site. So, perhaps 10kWHr of local storage. After that, you are dropped to the end of the queue.10kWHr?? most electric cars have more than 5 times that
