On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 9:42:04 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:00:16 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote: 
> >> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> > We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card). 
> >> That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same 
> >> price for all clients. The price depends on your contract, your usage, 
> >> the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges 
> >> in a particular billing period are known. 
> > 
> > That might be true for your corner of the world, but not in other in general and not at all in the USA in particular. We have NOT a single charging company in California billing on contract usage rate. When i drove my Leaf pass Oregon, i paid a fixed $20 a month for all the DCFC on the West Coast Electric Highway (of Oregon only). I believe they are currently free (wavier for limited time?) as well. So, at least for the two states (CA, OR), we are not billed on contract usage. Every single charging station bill on fixed price
> You will not find those here...

Fine.  You stay with custom cards and we stay with standard chip cards.  I am not planning to drive to your country anyway.

> >> > I find it hard to follow your reasoning that price cannot be determined at the end of charging session, but you elecricty usage elsewhere. 
> >> Can you calculate what a particular phone call has cost you after you have made it? Probably not. 
> > 
> > Why bother? I pay fixed monthly cost.
> So when you have a contract for car charging at fixed monthly cost, 
> would you still want to pay with credit card after charging? 

Of course not.  Anyway, we have NO changing company offering fixed monthly cost in California.  The $20 cover exactly one trip in Oregon.  I am not familiar with other states.  Except for Washington (with enough L2), i am restricted to drive to any other states.  I can still reach Reno and Las Vegas, but not going across Nevada.

> Also, your fixed monthly cost probably does not cover ALL possible 
> calls you can make. So when you make an unusual call (e.g. via INMARSAT), 
> what is it going to cost? Do you know?

No.  if i have to make unusual call, i would probably use another phone or some other option.  Same for driving, if i have to get out of CA, i would probably rent a GV (Gasoline Vehicle).

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:24:10 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:00:16 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote: 
>> > Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > > We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card). 
>> > That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same 
>> > price for all clients. The price depends on your contract, your usage, 
>> > the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges 
>> > in a particular billing period are known.
>> That might be true for your corner of the world, but not in other in general and not at all in the USA in particular. We have NOT a single charging company in California billing on contract usage rate. When i drove my Leaf pass Oregon, i paid a fixed $20 a month for all the DCFC on the West Coast Electric Highway (of Oregon only). I believe they are currently free (wavier for limited time?) as well. So, at least for the two states (CA, OR), we are not billed on contract usage. Every single charging station bill on fixed price
>
> And Oregon is interesting.  You are not allowed to pump your own gas.  There are full service gas pumpers at every station.  Are they going to extend it to charging stations?  If not, what are all the gas pumpers going to do with more and more EVs.

It is a bit like the situation of "what are we going to do with all
the coal porters after we have deployed the natural gas network".

They will probably get layed off...

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:00:16 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
>> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card).
>> That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same 
>> price for all clients. The price depends on your contract, your usage, 
>> the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges 
>> in a particular billing period are known.
>
> That might be true for your corner of the world, but not in other in general and not at all in the USA in particular.  We have NOT a single charging company in California billing on contract usage rate.  When i drove my Leaf pass Oregon, i paid a fixed $20 a month for all the DCFC on the West Coast Electric Highway (of Oregon only).  I believe they are currently free (wavier for limited time?) as well.  So, at least for the two states (CA, OR), we are not billed on contract usage.  Every single charging station bill on fixed price

You will not find those here...

>> > I find it hard to follow your reasoning that price cannot be determined at the end of charging session, but you elecricty usage elsewhere.
>> Can you calculate what a particular phone call has cost you after you have made it? Probably not.
>
> Why bother?  I pay fixed monthly cost.

So when you have a contract for car charging at fixed monthly cost,
would you still want to pay with credit card after charging?

Also, your fixed monthly cost probably does not cover ALL possible
calls you can make.  So when you make an unusual call (e.g. via INMARSAT),
what is it going to cost?  Do you know?

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:24:10 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:00:16 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote: 
> > Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card). 
> > That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same 
> > price for all clients. The price depends on your contract, your usage, 
> > the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges 
> > in a particular billing period are known.
> That might be true for your corner of the world, but not in other in general and not at all in the USA in particular. We have NOT a single charging company in California billing on contract usage rate. When i drove my Leaf pass Oregon, i paid a fixed $20 a month for all the DCFC on the West Coast Electric Highway (of Oregon only). I believe they are currently free (wavier for limited time?) as well. So, at least for the two states (CA, OR), we are not billed on contract usage. Every single charging station bill on fixed price

And Oregon is interesting.  You are not allowed to pump your own gas.  There are full service gas pumpers at every station.  Are they going to extend it to charging stations?  If not, what are all the gas pumpers going to do with more and more EVs.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:00:16 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card).
> That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same 
> price for all clients. The price depends on your contract, your usage, 
> the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges 
> in a particular billing period are known.

That might be true for your corner of the world, but not in other in general and not at all in the USA in particular.  We have NOT a single charging company in California billing on contract usage rate.  When i drove my Leaf pass Oregon, i paid a fixed $20 a month for all the DCFC on the West Coast Electric Highway (of Oregon only).  I believe they are currently free (wavier for limited time?) as well.  So, at least for the two states (CA, OR), we are not billed on contract usage.  Every single charging station bill on fixed price

> > I find it hard to follow your reasoning that price cannot be determined at the end of charging session, but you elecricty usage elsewhere.
> Can you calculate what a particular phone call has cost you after you have made it? Probably not.

Why bother?  I pay fixed monthly cost.

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card).

That is clear, but what I want to note that we do not have the same
price for all clients.  The price depends on your contract, your usage,
the time of day, etc and it can only be calculated when all your charges
in a particular billing period are known.

>  I find it hard to follow your reasoning that price cannot be determined at the end of charging session, but you elecricty usage elsewhere.

Can you calculate what a particular phone call has cost you after you
have made it?  Probably not.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:26:05 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 11:47:57 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: 
> >> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> >> But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating 
> >> >> a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), 
> >> >> which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, 
> >> >> per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) 
> >> >> so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end 
> >> >> it and leave. 
> >> > 
> >> > Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber. 
> >> Yes, but that is the old model. Gas stations are branded, and sell 
> >> a product for the same price to everyone. 
> > 
> > I think the gas station business model won't apply to charging an EV.
> Then why do you think the payment model does?
> > 
> >> With charging points they (at least here) try to move that branding 
> >> from the physical point to some virtual company where you have an 
> >> account to buy electricity. These companies can compete, e.g. offer 
> >> discounts at certain time of day, bulk purchase by fleet owners, 
> >> etc. The charging point does not know about that, it just delivers 
> >> a metered number of kWh in a metered amount of time (at a specific 
> >> date/time) and sends that record to the company that you have 
> >> contracted (you have presented your RFID card to identify you as 
> >> a customer and the company where you have your contract) and they 
> >> calculate how much it is going to cost. Which they may be only able 
> >> to do later, at the end of the month, when it is know how much you 
> >> have used in total. 
> >> 
> >> So it is not possible to calculate that amount in place at the 
> >> charging point, and hence also not possible to pay for it using a 
> >> plain credit card. 
> >> 
> >> It is all much comparable to cellphone subscriptions, public transport 
> >> tickets, electricity contracts, etc etc. 
> >> 
> >> Sure not everyone likes it. The fact that you usually cannot know 
> >> how much a charge is going to cost you when starting it is seen as 
> >> a definite disadvantage of the system. 
> > 
> > I'm not sure where you get the idea of this system. It is one of many variations.
> It is how it works here in the Netherlands, and I think in large parts 
> of Europe it is the same.
> > What it does not offer is the single most important thing to consumers, convenience. Mostly EV owners will charge at home.
> All this does not apply to that situation. At home you buy your own 
> charge point, connect it to your own electrical supply, and don't need 
> to meter your charge, you just pay for it via your electricity bill. 
> So that is irrelevant.
> > With range comparable to PV (Petroleum Vehicles) EVs will only need charging at stations when on trips. To facilitate getting the most out of the EV range will require closer spacing of charging units than we see now. They will need to be at as many highway exits as possible. For multiple companies to do this will result in so much duplication of effort that some companies will not be competitive ending up with many being merged into the bigger companies.
> That is reasonable thinking, not political or economical thinking. 
> According to that reasoning, there should be one single large telecom 
> company that manages all the infrastructure and sends you the bills. 
> That hugely reduces duplication of effort and costs. 
> That is how it all used to be, and guess what: that large company was 
> broken up and we got in the mess there is today. 
> Good thing? I don't think so, but governments and economists do.
> > The only thing preventing a single supplier of EV fast charging is the government who is loath to allow monopolies... unless they are regulated. As I've said before, some states don't allow the sale of kWh unless you are a registered (and regulated) utility. So it may end up with EV charging being run by the utilities. That doesn't sound like a good thing.
> Right. So that is the same in the USA as here in Europe. 
> It could be done, it would be efficient, but the governments do not 
> like it (after all, every politician wants to have a board of directors 
> function at a large company after their politic career, so they have to 
> make sure enough of those positions are available!), and thus we get 
> the "virtual company" with "competition" situation that requires these 
> virtual companies to be able to differentiate and therefore a simple 
> same-price-for-all pay-at-checkout is not possible.
> > Still, since EV charging is mostly a trip thing, the only important thing about it is that it exist. The world does not view EVs through Ed Lee colored glasses with his 40 mile range. We need to focus more on facilitating home and work charging. All this Ed Lee charging is a red herring.
> It depends on local situation. Here, a large percentage of potential 
> electric car users will not be able to charge directly at home. Our 
> homes typically don't have driveways and garages, but instead there 
> is a local parking lot for every group of homes, where like 20 cars 
> can be parked within walking distance of your home. Someone has to 
> fit these with "public" charging points where you can park the car 
> and charge it overnight. Or, there will have to be fast charging 
> stations where you can drive up on the way home from work and charge 
> the car in 15 minutes. 
> Both of these will require a payment system. And it will not be like 
> the "pay-at-checkout" method used in gas stations now.

We are not talking about same price for all station, but the same payment method (chip reader for credit/debit card).  I find it hard to follow your reasoning that price cannot be determined at the end of charging session, but you elecricty usage elsewhere.  Granted than you have commnuity parking lots for group of homes, but there is no requirement of charging fee directly tied to your home usage.  Community parking lots occupy different land and run on different wires, why should it be directly tied to your home usage.

We, in urban US, have the same arrangement, that our vehicles are parked in the street.  None of the charging stations here tie to anybody's home electricty bill.  Every single one of them are billed at the end of session.  The only point of using their subscription RFID card is to get points for "frequent charger", which i am happy to give up with a bit of privacy.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 11:47:57 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
>> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> >> But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating 
>> >> a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), 
>> >> which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, 
>> >> per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) 
>> >> so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end 
>> >> it and leave. 
>> > 
>> > Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber.
>> Yes, but that is the old model. Gas stations are branded, and sell 
>> a product for the same price to everyone. 
>
> I think the gas station business model won't apply to charging an EV.  

Then why do you think the payment model does?

>
>> With charging points they (at least here) try to move that branding 
>> from the physical point to some virtual company where you have an 
>> account to buy electricity. These companies can compete, e.g. offer 
>> discounts at certain time of day, bulk purchase by fleet owners, 
>> etc. The charging point does not know about that, it just delivers 
>> a metered number of kWh in a metered amount of time (at a specific 
>> date/time) and sends that record to the company that you have 
>> contracted (you have presented your RFID card to identify you as 
>> a customer and the company where you have your contract) and they 
>> calculate how much it is going to cost. Which they may be only able 
>> to do later, at the end of the month, when it is know how much you 
>> have used in total. 
>> 
>> So it is not possible to calculate that amount in place at the 
>> charging point, and hence also not possible to pay for it using a 
>> plain credit card. 
>> 
>> It is all much comparable to cellphone subscriptions, public transport 
>> tickets, electricity contracts, etc etc. 
>> 
>> Sure not everyone likes it. The fact that you usually cannot know 
>> how much a charge is going to cost you when starting it is seen as 
>> a definite disadvantage of the system.
>
> I'm not sure where you get the idea of this system.  It is one of many variations.

It is how it works here in the Netherlands, and I think in large parts
of Europe it is the same.

> What it does not offer is the single most important thing to consumers, convenience.  Mostly EV owners will charge at home.

All this does not apply to that situation.  At home you buy your own
charge point, connect it to your own electrical supply, and don't need
to meter your charge, you just pay for it via your electricity bill.
So that is irrelevant.

> With range comparable to PV (Petroleum Vehicles) EVs will only need charging at stations when on trips.  To facilitate getting the most out of the EV range will require closer spacing of charging units than we see now.  They will need to be at as many highway exits as possible.  For multiple companies to do this will result in so much duplication of effort that some companies will not be competitive ending up with many being merged into the bigger companies.

That is reasonable thinking, not political or economical thinking.
According to that reasoning, there should be one single large telecom
company that manages all the infrastructure and sends you the bills.
That hugely reduces duplication of effort and costs.
That is how it all used to be, and guess what: that large company was
broken up and we got in the mess there is today.
Good thing?  I don't think so, but governments and economists do.

> The only thing preventing a single supplier of EV fast charging is the government who is loath to allow monopolies... unless they are regulated.  As I've said before, some states don't allow the sale of kWh unless you are a registered (and regulated) utility.  So it may end up with EV charging being run by the utilities.  That doesn't sound like a good thing.  

Right.  So that is the same in the USA as here in Europe.
It could be done, it would be efficient, but the governments do not
like it (after all, every politician wants to have a board of directors
function at a large company after their politic career, so they have to
make sure enough of those positions are available!), and thus we get
the "virtual company" with "competition" situation that requires these
virtual companies to be able to differentiate and therefore a simple
same-price-for-all pay-at-checkout is not possible.

> Still, since EV charging is mostly a trip thing, the only important thing about it is that it exist.  The world does not view EVs through Ed Lee colored glasses with his 40 mile range.  We need to focus more on facilitating home and work charging.  All this Ed Lee charging is a red herring. 

It depends on local situation.   Here, a large percentage of potential
electric car users will not be able to charge directly at home.  Our
homes typically don't have driveways and garages, but instead there
is a local parking lot for every group of homes, where like 20 cars
can be parked within walking distance of your home.  Someone has to
fit these with "public" charging points where you can park the car
and charge it overnight.   Or, there will have to be fast charging
stations where you can drive up on the way home from work and charge
the car in 15 minutes.
Both of these will require a payment system.  And it will not be like
the "pay-at-checkout" method used in gas stations now.

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:37:56 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 10:34:45 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > Still, since EV charging is mostly a trip thing, the only important thing about it is that it exist. The world does not view EVs through Ed Lee colored glasses with his 40 mile range. We need to focus more on facilitating home and work charging. All this Ed Lee charging is a red herring. 
> > I don't get it. If you disagree with my assertion that chargers should be spaced less than 30 to 40 miles apart, what should it be? At least in California, that requirement is almost satisfied along major corridols. However, we still need to work on improving minor corridol such as the 152 Pacheco Pass between San Jose and I-5. 
> > 
> > Is pointing out what we need to do "a red herring".
> I simply don't think this is an important issue that we need to worry about. It will take care of itself through free enterprise. I think we need to make the public more aware that EVs do not need the equivalent of the ubiquitous gas stations. We need to make them aware of home charging and make sure it is available even if they live in town houses and apartment buildings. By 2025 something around half the new cars sold will be EVs. We need to get ready for that. Worrying about trip charging isn't as important as the other 99% of the charging that will happen. 

Hopping from one city to another city is important for many of us, and it's not like that would take huge amount of money to fix it.  I can think of only a handful of sites to improve the situation greatly.  We have our priority and you have yours.  Just because we have a different priority and you label it "red herring"?

> Your 30 to 40 mile spacing is literally based on your extremely limited range. How about we mandate EV charging at 55 mile spacing and no closer? LOL 

Then we should remove all those Tesla Superchargers, since every single one of them locates within 55 miles of another charger.

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 10:34:45 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > Still, since EV charging is mostly a trip thing, the only important thing about it is that it exist. The world does not view EVs through Ed Lee colored glasses with his 40 mile range. We need to focus more on facilitating home and work charging. All this Ed Lee charging is a red herring.
> I don't get it. If you disagree with my assertion that chargers should be spaced less than 30 to 40 miles apart, what should it be? At least in California, that requirement is almost satisfied along major corridols. However, we still need to work on improving minor corridol such as the 152 Pacheco Pass between San Jose and I-5. 
> 
> Is pointing out what we need to do "a red herring".

I simply don't think this is an important issue that we need to worry about.  It will take care of itself through free enterprise.  I think we need to make the public more aware that EVs do not need the equivalent of the ubiquitous gas stations.  We need to make them aware of home charging and make sure it is available even if they live in town houses and apartment buildings.  By 2025 something around half the new cars sold will be EVs.  We need to get ready for that.  Worrying about trip charging isn't as important as the other 99% of the charging that will happen.  

Your 30 to 40 mile spacing is literally based on your extremely limited range.  How about we mandate EV charging at 55 mile spacing and no closer?  LOL 

-- 

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209