On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:49:54 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.36.59 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > > > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > > > > system you might as well go all the way > > > > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > > > > > > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want. > > > and waste energy, time, and batteries, ... > > The goal is to provide 20 to 30 miles out of the site. So, perhaps 10kWHr of local storage. After that, you are dropped to the end of the queue. > 10kWHr?? most electric cars have more than 5 times thatSo, battery cost should not be an issue. Just enough to get to the next station 30 miles away. Not every car would need to charge there. But an option for some.
Motion in support or reject EV charging chip reader?
Started by ●October 10, 2021
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 03.05.25 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:49:54 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > tirsdag den 12. oktober 2021 kl. 02.36.59 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.34.55 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:28:57 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 19.10.20 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > > > > mandag den 11. oktober 2021 kl. 17.58.42 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > > > > > > > > > > > >> > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>Again: > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>"Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>For: > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger > > > > > > > > > > > >> > King? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> One difference (here at least) is that at a gas station you buy gas > > > > > > > > > > > >> at an advertised price and pay to the owner of the station using a > > > > > > > > > > > >> payment method that has nothing to do with gas purchases (like a > > > > > > > > > > > >> credit card, debit card). One exception is for cars leased including > > > > > > > > > > > >> gas, where you present a card that identifies you and puts the purchase > > > > > > > > > > > >> on your car's account. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> With EV chargers, it is different. Or actually, only that last option > > > > > > > > > > > >> exists. There is no advertised price at the charging station, but > > > > > > > > > > > >> rather you have a contract with some company that determines your > > > > > > > > > > > >> rate structure and handles your payments. There are several such > > > > > > > > > > > >> companies, and they can offer different contract options. > > > > > > > > > > > >> So what you pay for your charge is not the same as what your > > > > > > > > > > > >> neighbor pays, and it would be impossible to handle it via a generic > > > > > > > > > > > >> payment system like a credit card, unless you ALSO identify to the > > > > > > > > > > > >> charger as a customer with a specific contract, and the charging > > > > > > > > > > > >> station can somehow communicate and get the details of that contract. > > > > > > > > > > > >> (even then it won't work on a charge-by-charge basis because your > > > > > > > > > > > >> contract may include "free" kWh per month, etc) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are trying to say. I don't know of any company that offeres free electrons per month, etc. Right now each network is trying to grow as fast as possible (most of them expecting to be bought up at a good markup from their current stock prices). Eventually there will be one or two national systems in the US with pretty similar payment methods (credit card) and the price will vary with location and possibly time of day or maybe regional networks some dozen or so. But the idea of competitive charging networks covering the same areas is not so practical I think as Ed Lee is finding. > > > > > > > > > > > What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > > > > > > > > > > > place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > > > > > > > > > > > a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > > > > > > > > > > > contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > > > > > > > > > > > the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > > > > > > > > > > > sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > > > > > > > > > > > Some calls may be free while others aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > > > > > > > > > > > you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > > > > > > > > > > > you had during e.g. a month. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason this won't happen is if there is a significant advantage in operation by having "subscribers" rather than customers. Costs are highly dependent on peaks and demand. So there may be a way to moderate that through subscriptions that isn't applicable to allowing roaming users. At this time I don't see that happening since peak costs can be mitigated by passing on those costs to the user. If there is useful feedback provided users will develop charging habits that minimize their costs and system costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen charging stations on the web that have solar panels built in along with batteries as self contained units requiring no outside electrical connection. Plop it in a parking lot and it makes money. I can see that happening in work parking lots. When your car is about fully charged you can walk out to move it and another can take it's place. That might work much better with subscribers. You get a bit of exercise as well. > > > > > > > > > Another option is a self-driving charger. User just sign up in a waiting queue. When done with one car, it moves itself back to the base stations to recharge, then move to the next car in the queue. It would be a lot cheaper than having fixed charging stand in every space and no need to remind drivers to MOVE YOUR CAR when done. > > > > > > > > great idea, just need to have an onboard generator run it on diesel or better yet coal or firewood to make it perfect.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would make Rube Goldberg proud > > > > > > > How about Nuclear? But no need to have it mobile, running in base station is good enough. > > > > > > too efficient, not enough emissions, if you are going to make a dumb inefficient and pointless > > > > > > system you might as well go all the way > > > > > Maybe inefficient but not pointless. We, EV drivers, are always mindful of coming back to MOVE OUR CAR after charging. Plugs will get disconnected but we are still disgraced for blocking the space. > > > > > > > > > > With my system, you just park, plug in and come back whenever you want. > > > > and waste energy, time, and batteries, ... > > > The goal is to provide 20 to 30 miles out of the site. So, perhaps 10kWHr of local storage. After that, you are dropped to the end of the queue. > > 10kWHr?? most electric cars have more than 5 times that > So, battery cost should not be an issue. Just enough to get to the next station 30 miles away. Not every car would need to charge there. But an option for some.so the equivalent of a tow truck
Reply by ●October 11, 20212021-10-11
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 10:42:10 PM UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 10:38:54 PM UTC-4, dean...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 8:13:15 PM UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 7:08:12 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:00:56 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:37:22 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:28:19 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Against: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > > > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > > > > > > > > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > > > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > > > > > > > > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > > > > > > Your argument to making EV charging simpler and more universal is for every charging company to have their own RFID card? Just have credit card readers which seem to commonly RFID these days and be done with it! Why make it complex? > > > > > > You are not understanding the issue. I am in support of the Motion by CARB to mandate credit card reader starting 2022. Without the mandate, most free marketers simply have their own RFID readers for their own cards. > > > > > > > Unless a government agency gets full of themselves and mandates some sort of common, EV specific card, the natural progression is to either a credit card based system or a Tesla like system where the car is the key card. Nothing else makes sense. > > > > > > That's what the mandate is saying. We must have the option to pay with anonymous credit/debit cards. > > > > > > > > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > > > > > > > > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second. > > > > > > > Then don't drive. It's not a right, it's a privilege. Besides, if you use Gmaps or Waze you are tracked anyway. Then there are the micro chips you got when you were vaccinated... not to mention the satellites watching you. You don't really think Musk put all those sats in orbit without approval and massive funding from the CIA, FBI, TSA and the Ministry of Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are watching all of us, but they are *really* watching YOU! > > > > > > I know. The money gouging free marketers don't like me. > > > > > According to you anyone who doesn't give it away is a money gouger. > > > > > > > > > > Charging is going to be just like gasoline in the end. You will pay the cost of providing electrons and they will make their money on the other stuff you buy. > > > > > > > > > > There's no need to mandate anything. The free market will let the popular chargers make money and the others will be bought up. Vote with your wallet. Don't ask the government to cast your vote for you. You may not like the result. > > > > Yes, the anonymous free CalTran chargers are winning the race, but there are still locations that are out of reach. The mandate is asking for another option, but nobody is stopping you from using their own private card/reader. > > > What are you talking about "another option"? The mandate is a mandate. If they use a credit card reader they won't use anything else! CalTran is only "winning" anything because it is outside the process of natural selection by the users voting. It is SUBSIDIZED and exists regardless of use or "profitability". You only like it because you like for others to pay for your driving. Good thing you live in California. > > > > > > I'm trying to think if there are credit card readers that are completely exposed. The gas pumps and parking garages card readers are all under cover. I've not seen any car chargers that are under cover. I guess they can do the RFID y thing outdoors easily enough, but not all credit cards are RFID, especially the anonymous debit cards. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > > ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > I must be thinking of something different than you. There's a picture here of a Pump & Pantry convenience store. Casey's is another convenience store chain in Nebraska. > > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pump+and+pantry+%235&t=ffab&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fbloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com%2Ftheindependent.com%2Fcontent%2Ftncms%2Fassets%2Fv3%2Feditorial%2F5%2F39%2F53940063-7388-5d2b-8f1b-674895b06c31%2F4f9b1c46d5dd3.image.jpg> > > OR. <tinyurl.com/keb4mc9p > > > The roofs over the pumps really don't do that much good. I think they're there mainly just for the lighting. A little breeze will push the rain or snow right to the pumps. There really isn't a cover over the credit card slots. > > These gas pumps are outside for practical purposes. > > <https://vitalbypoet.com/stories/caseys-rapidly-expands-its-e15-offerings> > Actually the shelters over the pumps do a LOT of good. I'm sure in really bad weather the pumps get wet, but try designing electronics to sit outside in direct rain, snow, etc 24/7. It's hard to make it last. It can be done, but the costs go up significantly. That's one of the big reasons why military gear is so expensive. It's intended to be used in the worst conditions and keep working. > > -- > > Rick C. > > -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209Some of the local farmers coops have locations that are open for part of the day. The gas pumps work 24/7. Some of the pumps have no roof but work with cards. I think there's a discount if it's the coops card rather the Visa/Mastercard. Some are set up like this. The little white Cardtrol box lets one choose which pump to activate. My former employers bought gas at a similar setup. <https://www.cvacoop.com/getmedia/49537835-362c-43a7-a07a-0b802678e26f/Miltonvale-Cardtrol?width=999&height=667&ext=.jpg> There are a few of these around. <https://enerbase.coop/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/IMG_0127.jpg>y I have no idea if they're designed differently than the better covered ones or what to look for. We get mostly rain or outright snow. Sleet and freezing rain do happen but not terribly often.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:>> What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a >> place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like >> a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your >> contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates >> the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that >> sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. >> Some calls may be free while others aren't. >> >> Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, >> you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service >> you had during e.g. a month. > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees.If anything, it appears that society is going the opposite direction at least here. Pay per deal is more and more being replaced by complicated subscription systems where it is difficult to see who has the advantage, but likely it isn't the customer.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:12:04 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > >> place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > >> a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > >> contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > >> the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > >> sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > >> Some calls may be free while others aren't. > >> > >> Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > >> you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > >> you had during e.g. a month. > > > > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > If anything, it appears that society is going the opposite direction > at least here. Pay per deal is more and more being replaced by > complicated subscription systems where it is difficult to see who > has the advantage, but likely it isn't the customer.This is exactly why the People in the Social ePublic of California want to opt out of subscription, as opposed to the People's Republic of another country where everybody is forced to subscribe to the State. The other country hijacked the name of the "People's Republic" and doing exactly the opposite of what the People want. We, the People in the SEOC, want to be free from subscription and tracking and all the nonsense of submission for the benefit of the State. We are in support of the Motion to require anonymous payment with pre-paid chip card.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:12:04 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote: >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a >> >> place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like >> >> a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your >> >> contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates >> >> the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that >> >> sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. >> >> Some calls may be free while others aren't. >> >> >> >> Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, >> >> you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service >> >> you had during e.g. a month. >> > >> > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. >> If anything, it appears that society is going the opposite direction >> at least here. Pay per deal is more and more being replaced by >> complicated subscription systems where it is difficult to see who >> has the advantage, but likely it isn't the customer. > > This is exactly why the People in the Social ePublic of California want to opt out of subscription, as opposed to the People's Republic of another country where everybody is forced to subscribe to the State. The other country hijacked the name of the "People's Republic" and doing exactly the opposite of what the People want. > > We, the People in the SEOC, want to be free from subscription and tracking and all the nonsense of submission for the benefit of the State. > > We are in support of the Motion to require anonymous payment with pre-paid chip card.But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end it and leave. And of course all the time you stand there the security camera will have your license plate in view, so it isn't very anonymous anyway. Here, the EU believes in "competition" (they have gone far overboard with that IMHO), and they would like several such operating companies to compete with their services on the same infrastructure. The charging points themselves are often established by the municipality, a local company, etc and this is considered to be a monopolistic activity as there cannot realistically be charging points from many different companies al side-by-side on the same street or parking space. So what the user is dealing with is only an operating company, there are several, and they are unrelated to the charging points. It is similar to the situation in telecom and energy. We have separated the physical network operation from the "provider" of the service, of which there are many. You deal only with them, not with the network provider.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 5:22:05 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:12:04 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote: > >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> What I am trying to explain is that an EV charge point (here) is not a > >> >> place where you buy a product at a pre-determined price. It is more like > >> >> a cellphone subscription: you pay a price per call that depends on your > >> >> contract with the supplier. That is not the guy who installs and operates > >> >> the chargepoint (or the cell tower), but an administrative agency that > >> >> sells chargepoint minutes and kWh using a complicated price structure. > >> >> Some calls may be free while others aren't. > >> >> > >> >> Just like you cannot pay for a cellphone call using a credit card, > >> >> you can't pay for an EV charge. You only pay for the total service > >> >> you had during e.g. a month. > >> > > >> > Yes, we know that is the current system, but that will change. Most of the current networks will be bought up by the larger ones. As more EVs are on the roads there will be more pressure for user convenience. The first company who accepts credit cards without a subscription will have an advantage gathering the opportunistic chargees. > >> If anything, it appears that society is going the opposite direction > >> at least here. Pay per deal is more and more being replaced by > >> complicated subscription systems where it is difficult to see who > >> has the advantage, but likely it isn't the customer. > > > > This is exactly why the People in the Social ePublic of California want to opt out of subscription, as opposed to the People's Republic of another country where everybody is forced to subscribe to the State. The other country hijacked the name of the "People's Republic" and doing exactly the opposite of what the People want. > > > > We, the People in the SEOC, want to be free from subscription and tracking and all the nonsense of submission for the benefit of the State. > > > > We are in support of the Motion to require anonymous payment with pre-paid chip card. > But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating > a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), > which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, > per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) > so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end > it and leave.Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber.> And of course all the time you stand there the security > camera will have your license plate in view, so it isn't very anonymous > anyway.camera recordings are not usually used for marketing data collection, but only for security when there is crime involved.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:>> But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating >> a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), >> which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, >> per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) >> so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end >> it and leave. > > Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber.Yes, but that is the old model. Gas stations are branded, and sell a product for the same price to everyone. With charging points they (at least here) try to move that branding from the physical point to some virtual company where you have an account to buy electricity. These companies can compete, e.g. offer discounts at certain time of day, bulk purchase by fleet owners, etc. The charging point does not know about that, it just delivers a metered number of kWh in a metered amount of time (at a specific date/time) and sends that record to the company that you have contracted (you have presented your RFID card to identify you as a customer and the company where you have your contract) and they calculate how much it is going to cost. Which they may be only able to do later, at the end of the month, when it is know how much you have used in total. So it is not possible to calculate that amount in place at the charging point, and hence also not possible to pay for it using a plain credit card. It is all much comparable to cellphone subscriptions, public transport tickets, electricity contracts, etc etc. Sure not everyone likes it. The fact that you usually cannot know how much a charge is going to cost you when starting it is seen as a definite disadvantage of the system.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating > >> a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), > >> which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, > >> per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) > >> so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end > >> it and leave. > > > > Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber. > Yes, but that is the old model. Gas stations are branded, and sell > a product for the same price to everyone. > > With charging points they (at least here) try to move that branding > from the physical point to some virtual company where you have an > account to buy electricity. These companies can compete, e.g. offer > discounts at certain time of day, bulk purchase by fleet owners, > etc. The charging point does not know about that, it just delivers > a metered number of kWh in a metered amount of time (at a specific > date/time) and sends that record to the company that you have > contracted (you have presented your RFID card to identify you as > a customer and the company where you have your contract) and they > calculate how much it is going to cost. Which they may be only able > to do later, at the end of the month, when it is know how much you > have used in total.The amount i pay at this station should not depend on how much i use elsewhere. And none of the charging companys offer discount for using more non-charging electricity.> > So it is not possible to calculate that amount in place at the > charging point, and hence also not possible to pay for it using a > plain credit card.Nop, i am paying exactly the same with their RFID card, which is registering the same pre-paid card.> It is all much comparable to cellphone subscriptions,I am also using pre-paid cellphone account, which is fixed amount whether using the quota or not.> public transport tickets,and also pay per use.> electricity contracts, etc etc.and only pay for the amount of usage.> Sure not everyone likes it. The fact that you usually cannot know > how much a charge is going to cost you when starting it is seen as > a definite disadvantage of the system.But i know exactly what it's going to cost at the end of the session. The only different is that i am giving up their "frequent charger" points by not using their RFID card. Anyway, what we are asking for is to have the choice of using pre-paid card, not just forced to use their RFID card.
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 11:47:57 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> But that would mean that you need to have a single company operating > >> a charging point (like there is a single company operating a gas station), > >> which has a single pricing structure for everyone (prices per kWh, > >> per minute, one-time charge, etc all of course for on-peak and off-peak) > >> so the charging point can calculate the cost of the charge when you end > >> it and leave. > > > > Why should that matter with the manner of payment? I should be billed for the amount of electricity obtained, regardless of whom i am. Gas stations don't reject cash or credit card or if you are not a subscriber. > Yes, but that is the old model. Gas stations are branded, and sell > a product for the same price to everyone.I think the gas station business model won't apply to charging an EV.> With charging points they (at least here) try to move that branding > from the physical point to some virtual company where you have an > account to buy electricity. These companies can compete, e.g. offer > discounts at certain time of day, bulk purchase by fleet owners, > etc. The charging point does not know about that, it just delivers > a metered number of kWh in a metered amount of time (at a specific > date/time) and sends that record to the company that you have > contracted (you have presented your RFID card to identify you as > a customer and the company where you have your contract) and they > calculate how much it is going to cost. Which they may be only able > to do later, at the end of the month, when it is know how much you > have used in total. > > So it is not possible to calculate that amount in place at the > charging point, and hence also not possible to pay for it using a > plain credit card. > > It is all much comparable to cellphone subscriptions, public transport > tickets, electricity contracts, etc etc. > > Sure not everyone likes it. The fact that you usually cannot know > how much a charge is going to cost you when starting it is seen as > a definite disadvantage of the system.I'm not sure where you get the idea of this system. It is one of many variations. What it does not offer is the single most important thing to consumers, convenience. Mostly EV owners will charge at home. With range comparable to PV (Petroleum Vehicles) EVs will only need charging at stations when on trips. To facilitate getting the most out of the EV range will require closer spacing of charging units than we see now. They will need to be at as many highway exits as possible. For multiple companies to do this will result in so much duplication of effort that some companies will not be competitive ending up with many being merged into the bigger companies. I can't see any reason for this to stop at any number of companies other than one. Along the way the emphasis will be on lowering costs which will require a simple payment method, credit cards. I recall Sheetz sending my company advertisements for fleet sales with various promotional features including discounts on gas. No special cards were required. Just a Sheetz credit card so they could track your savings. Not a bad business model for local travel, but not so good to be hunting for a particular brand when on the highway. So, good for gas, not so good for electrons. The only thing preventing a single supplier of EV fast charging is the government who is loath to allow monopolies... unless they are regulated. As I've said before, some states don't allow the sale of kWh unless you are a registered (and regulated) utility. So it may end up with EV charging being run by the utilities. That doesn't sound like a good thing. Still, since EV charging is mostly a trip thing, the only important thing about it is that it exist. The world does not view EVs through Ed Lee colored glasses with his 40 mile range. We need to focus more on facilitating home and work charging. All this Ed Lee charging is a red herring. -- Rick C. -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
