On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote:> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >> suggestions please >> TIA > > Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes. If that's what interests you, look up "1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web. I find the subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about tubes? Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?
Is there a good book for learning about valves/tubes?
Started by ●August 9, 2020
Reply by ●August 10, 20202020-08-10
Reply by ●August 10, 20202020-08-10
On 2020-08-10 15:46, gray_wolf wrote:> On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote: >> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >>> suggestions please >>> TIA >> >> Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've >> gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. >> Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes. If that's what >> interests you, look up "1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also >> later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web. I find the >> subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a >> post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >> > > Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about > tubes? > Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On 8/10/20 4:47 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;)Why does it have to be serial? Why can't it be parallel? -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On 8/11/2020 1:16 AM, gray_wolf wrote:> On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote: >> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >>> suggestions please >>> TIA >> >> Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes. If that's what interests you, look up "1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web. I find the subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >> > > Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about tubes? > Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp? >Good question, yes. So far the OP hasn't made clear what he wants to do. In the absence of such clarification, I'd guess that most people who ask the question want to gain enough knowledge about tubes to be able to a) design tube circuits OR b) repair a tube amp OR c) simply understand what the fuss is all about without a specific goal in mind.
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On 2020-08-11 00:40, Grant Taylor wrote:> On 8/10/20 4:47 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;) > > Why does it have to be serial? Why can't it be parallel?Takes too many tubes. See the IBM 650. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:47:09 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:>On 2020-08-10 15:46, gray_wolf wrote: >> On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote: >>> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >>>> suggestions please >>>> TIA >>> >>> Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've >>> gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. >>> Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes.� If that's what >>> interests you, look up "1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also >>> later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web.� I find the >>> subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a >>> post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >>> >> >> Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about >> tubes? >> Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp? > >EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;)The arithmetic and logical functions are relative easy, but the control functionality (instruction decoding and micro sequencing) is the problem. You need kind of ROM (e.g. a semiconductor diode matrix or core memory). You also need some scratch pad memory, such as core or acoustic (mercury) delay lines.
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:40:45 -0600, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:>On 8/10/20 4:47 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;) > >Why does it have to be serial? Why can't it be parallel?The ENIAC calculator was parallel and had 18000 tubes, early commercial computers were serial (or BCD) with just a few thousand tubes and they even executed a stored program.
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;)Y'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given modern architectural and electronic knowledge. A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable, there'd be some tradeoff between tube count and computational power, and with say 16 bit instruction cycles and standard integer ops (logic, arithmetic, and since it's serial, mul and div are pretty cheap) it should be competetive with, say, the Apollo Guidance Computer (~50kIPS) or some very impoverished MCUs (maybe not any 8-bit machines, but those 4-bitters that are still around in some niches). The memory of course is always going to be the hard part. If you're reluctant to patch in a modern SRAM, you're going to have a hard time doing much of anything else. (Not bad if you find an old core module in working condition, I guess.) But then, you still need all the support hardware to make use of it. Even just a serial terminal, you either need to get lucky with a surviving vintage one (where "vintage" in this scenario includes any current tech that's surviving?), or make one yourself, which means you're going to need a CRT and support components, rasterizer, character generator, video RAM... All things which existed in various forms back in the day (delay line might be okay for the RAM; and there were CRT-ROMs for drawing characters!), but which weren't exactly corner-store items even back then. Probably the more realistic scenario is developing a hack-friendly Android OS to use on all those phones that are suddenly less useful without active base stations, and even if a bunch end up dead for various reasons, there's just so many that will survive. Much easier then to keep the battery charged, which, automotive and mains chargers are at least as likely to survive and remain as reliable as they were (which is to say, not always that much heh, but still), and mains inverters and generators, and car batteries and alternators, aren't going away ever so that should be a good enough stopping point. (Engines in turn can be fed by gassified wood, for example.) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:39:21 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:>"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message >news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org... >> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;) > >Y'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given >modern architectural and electronic knowledge.One thing limiting the speed was the high tube stray capacitances and high impedance levels. Finding tubes with good cathode emissivity might help to design logical circuits with low (say 20-30 V) anode voltages. Ordinary tubes can have reassemble power gain in grounded grid configuration even at VHF. A grounded grid flip-flop ??> >A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable, there'd be some >tradeoff between tube count and computational power, and with say 16 bit >instruction cycles and standard integer ops (logic, arithmetic, and since >it's serial, mul and div are pretty cheap) it should be competetive with, >say, the Apollo Guidance Computer (~50kIPS) or some very impoverished MCUs >(maybe not any 8-bit machines, but those 4-bitters that are still around in >some niches).A bit clock above 10 MHz should be possible, so a word add times of a few us should be possible.> >The memory of course is always going to be the hard part. If you're >reluctant to patch in a modern SRAM, you're going to have a hard time doing >much of anything else. (Not bad if you find an old core module in working >condition, I guess.)You still might find some magnetic core modules. Of course some shift registers, such as mercury delay lines or 64 us PAL TV delay lines might be used.> >But then, you still need all the support hardware to make use of it. Even >just a serial terminal, you either need to get lucky with a surviving >vintage one (where "vintage" in this scenario includes any current tech >that's surviving?), or make one yourself, which means you're going to need a >CRT and support components, rasterizer, character generator, video RAM... >All things which existed in various forms back in the day (delay line might >be okay for the RAM; and there were CRT-ROMs for drawing characters!), but >which weren't exactly corner-store items even back then.A Teletype terminal al should do. One Teletype we used had only semiconductor mains rectifiers and a TO3 power transistor in the 20 mA constant current generator. The data generation and decoding was all electromechanical.
Reply by ●August 11, 20202020-08-11
