On 13/08/20 19:26, Tauno Voipio wrote:> On 13.8.20 20.23, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 13/08/20 16:57, Tauno Voipio wrote: >>> On 13.8.20 11.41, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>> On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote: >>>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote: >>>>>> "Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message >>>>>> news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org... >>>>>>> EMP-proof serial computer, definitely. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> Y'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given >>>>>> modern architectural and electronic knowledge. >>>>>> >>>>>> A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D >>>>> printing of electrodes. Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines >>>>> were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to mind) and a delay-line memory >>>>> is wonderfully parts-count minimal. >>>>> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A> >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy >>>> the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic >>>> gates. >>>> >>>> http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e >>>> >>>> I'm sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss >>>> in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC >>> >>> >>> The Ellie in your reference used delay lines in registers, >>> with weird bit time lengths. They were the main reason why >>> the machine was very fussy on the three-phase clock frequency. >> >> /Everything/ was weird back then :) >> >> Except, in the case of the 803 etc, Tony Hoare's Algol-60 >> compiler which was groundbreaking. >> >> It was still was weird in the 1970s microprocessors. Consider >> the RCA1802, the Motorola 14500, and what was that one >> without an external address bus? > > At least Intel 4004 and 4040. 3 power supplies and weird clocking.Those are normal, if primitive. The 14500 processor was a 1-bit machine. The one without an external address bus was the Fairchild F8. Its PC was contained in each of the support chips; must have been fun fun fun if one got out of sync with the others! The 1802 wasn't too odd, except that the PC was designated by a 4-bit register under programmer control.> I agree on Hoare's Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode > and direct octal code input.I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :) The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)
Is there a good book for learning about valves/tubes?
Started by ●August 9, 2020
Reply by ●August 13, 20202020-08-13
Reply by ●August 13, 20202020-08-13
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote: ...> The 1802 wasn't too odd, except that the PC was designated > by a 4-bit register under programmer control. > > I agree on Hoare's Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode > > and direct octal code input. > I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :) > > The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he > was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler. That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC. kw
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On 10/08/2020 1:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:> david eather wrote: > > > ================ > > ** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types. > > FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about. > > > > ..... Phil >A very fair question. As a young lad I had no contact with valves. At uni I had no need to know anything about them and studiously (is that even possible?) avoided them. Now at home much more because of CV19, I have lots of spare time and while it is not going to be a source of any income I would like to fill at least some of my ignorance. So I am looking for a good general introductory book on the subject. I see lots of recommendations which I will go through 'till I find something of the right level. Alternatively with all this free time I could go out more, but everywhere I am supposed to stand has a big black 'X' on it, and I've seen too many Road Runner shows to fall for that!
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On 11/08/2020 5:46 am, gray_wolf wrote:> On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote: >> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >>> suggestions please >>> TIA >> >> Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've >> gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. >> Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes. If that's what >> interests you, look up "1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also >> later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web. I find the >> subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a >> post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >> > > Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about > tubes? > Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?probably some nice warm audio amp I could claim superior to harsh 'digital' ones and flog them off for a fortune
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:> On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote: > ... >> The 1802 wasn't too odd, except that the PC was designated >> by a 4-bit register under programmer control. >>> I agree on Hoare's Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode >>> and direct octal code input. >> I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :) >> >> The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he >> was surprised when I mentioned having used it :) > > The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler. > > That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell Tech (now NESCOT). I'm not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices. The instruction cycle time was 276us. I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient. If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one, they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them. Now that's what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On 14/08/20 06:05, david eather wrote:> On 11/08/2020 5:46 am, gray_wolf wrote: >> On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote: >>> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote: >>>> suggestions please >>>> TIA >>> >>> Dunno exactly what you're looking for, but the suggestions you've gotten so >>> far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. Another dimension is >>> the design *of* valves/tubes. If that's what interests you, look up "1940 >>> RCA Vacuum Tube Design." (There are also later editions.) You can find free >>> PDFs on the web. I find the subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be >>> relevant again in a post-apocalyptic world :-) ) >>> >> >> Good question! I'm wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about tubes? >> Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp? > > probably some nice warm audio amp I could claim superior to harsh 'digital' ones > and flog them off for a fortuneAudiofools have a reputation for buying Tek scopes and stripping them of their valves.
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
david eather who refuses to answer a simple question wrote: ===========================================================> > ** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types. > > > > FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about. > > > > A very fair question.** Which is still going unanswered.> As a young lad I had no contact with valves. At uni I had no need to > know anything about them and studiously (is that even possible?) avoided > them. Now at home much more because of CV19, I have lots of spare time > and while it is not going to be a source of any income I would like to > fill at least some of my ignorance. >** And you imagine reading a book will do that ?> So I am looking for a good general introductory book on the subject.** What subject is that ? We cannot reads your mind.> see lots of recommendations which I will go through 'till I find > something of the right level.** So you are not going to answer the Q at all ? Wot a PIA you are. ..... Phil
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
Tom Gardner wrote: ----------------> > Audiofools have a reputation for buying Tek scopes and > stripping them of their valves. >** Not audiophools as such - but cunning opportunists out to exploit their addiction. Much like illegal drug dealers really.... .... Phil
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:50:37 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 2020-08-12 21:52, Michael Terrell wrote: > > On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 2:15:56 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio > > wrote: > >> On 10.8.20 0.06, david eather wrote: > >>> suggestions please TIA > >> > >> For transmitting use: The Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes, by > >> Eimac, if you can get hold of one. (I'll keep mine). > > > > > > I'd like to see the datasheets on the EEV Klystrons that were used in > > a Comark UHF TV transmitter that I maintained. 65KW output, per tube. > > It's bee over 30 years, so I don't remember their type number. It was > > the last Comark built with Klystrons. The next transmitter used > > Klystrodes, instead. Higher efficiency, less cooling required and > > lower electric bills. > > > > I didn't know about Klystrodes--pretty cool devices actually.Even you can't be expected to know everything. Sadly some of the most interesting and useful tubes came too late to have a long, useful life. Digital TV killed off most or all of the remaining Tube transmitters, leaving that job to racks full of drawers of semiconductor trays connected to complex dividers and combiners. The only advantage is the CPU can power down and disconnect a damaged tray, while terminating the pair of unused ports. Harris was early into modular solid state transmitters. Their 5KW AM wasn't much more than a bunch of paralleled, modular SMPS, and filters. It did eliminate the need for a modulation transformer, but the bad new is that some stations transmit subsonics below 10Hz with them. The rumble from the speakers masks the desired audio.
Reply by ●August 14, 20202020-08-14
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: >> On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote: >> ... >>> The 1802 wasn't too odd, except that the PC was designated >>> by a 4-bit register under programmer control. >>>> I agree on Hoare's Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode >>>> and direct octal code input. >>> I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :) >>> >>> The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he >>> was surprised when I mentioned having used it :) >> >> The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, >> with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran >> Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6" diameter roll. >> The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and >> had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler. >> >> That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running >> at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips >> IIRC. > > I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell > Tech (now NESCOT). > > I'm not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since > it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices. > > The instruction cycle time was 276us. > > I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient. > > If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen > to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I > mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one, > they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them. > > Now that's what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley > Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once. >The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles, 576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers. There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first part before use. -- -TV
