On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:[snip]>> >>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. > >Do I have to give all the money back?What's that supposed to mean? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?
Started by ●May 22, 2017
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
John Larkin wrote on 5/28/2017 12:49 PM:> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin >> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>>> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to >>>>> actually show the diode as part of the symbol. I've seen many >>>>> cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been >>>>> supplemented with the diode. This may be redundant,* but it >>>>> comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always >>>>> aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, >>>>> and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. Ahem, >>>>> would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode? >>>> >>>> As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;) >>>> >>>> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. >>> >>> It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. >>> >>> It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>> symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or >>> avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement >>> or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting >>> any of those things. >> >> You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented? > > Sure, give each mosfet its own schematic sheet. > >> >> That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. > > Do I have to give all the money back?Who *is* this silly person? -- Rick C
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >[snip] >>> >>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. >> >>Do I have to give all the money back? > >What's that supposed to mean? > > ...Jim ThompsonIt means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and I got paid. And I don't regret it. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On a sunny day (28 May 2017 04:55:42 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in <ogedru01cfn@drn.newsguy.com>:>Jan Panteltje wrote... >> >> last time I used a printer was to print a map ... >> Whiteboards are too big, paper is patient, part of the >> last circuit diagram got dissolved as it was under a >> wet coffee cup. Luckily there was enough space left: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/took_a_byte_IMG_6210.JPG > > Snork! I assume you have one of the cheap all-in-one > ink-jet printers. They're nice to save scans of your > valuable pencil sketches, and print copies that you > can mistreat with solder burns, or whatever. Copies > are useful for recording measurement notes as well.I have a Epson R200, I did a lot of CD printing in color (it has a flatbed flap for that). But that project ended, In those times I bought a set of bottles and an ink feed system from these guys: http://www.continuousink.com/ the bottles are still half full, enough for thousands of pages I think... It is a good printer, but gets easily clogged up. I have done PCB layouts on transparent (single sided) with it too. And then the caustic soda and etching thing ... For the small one of proto experiments I make now I just use veroboard. Works just a well or better, no stains in the kitchen, easy to change. In my job I just had the PCBs made, sometimes including layout.> I got an HP 7525 for $125 at Costco, good features, > full duplex on printing and scanning, etc. Just be > careful with the ink usage, they make $$ back there. > > >-- > Thanks, > - Win >
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 10:36:39 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson >>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>[snip] >>>> >>>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. >>> >>>Do I have to give all the money back? >> >>What's that supposed to mean? >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to >maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and >I got paid. And I don't regret it.I'm happy for you >:-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 5:56:04 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:> On Sat, 27 May 2017 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> > wrote:[about symbols]> >The one for thermocouple is really a nuisance, it looks too much like > >just a joint in a wire. Which it IS, but it's a SPECIAL joint, and the wire > >types matter, and they ARE NOT IDENTIFIED in that silly symbol. So, how > >can I get the polarity right? > > You'd have to use a character-based language. > > TYPE K > > + > > -Unhelpful, of course. The actual parts are chromel and constantan, or the pair markings are yellow and red, not marked with any text symbols. There's not a K or a + or - anywhere to be seen, until the wire has to get connected to the plug. With spools of wire, and a diagram, I'd like to know what to connect where. There's too much reliance on conventions and little bits of information not expressed clearly on the schematic nor in the wire-spool label. Anyone who needs this info, presumably puts it on a post-it and gets the work done, but that post-it wouldn't be required if the schematic symbol actually depicted the reality... somehow.
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 5:46:11 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:> "whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:d0a99d43-2f87-41b0-8ce2-fcb5b25034a2@googlegroups.com... > > What I'd really like to see, is a good symbol for a Hall effect sensor.> Hall effect is usually drawn as an isometric rectangle, with connections to > the sides. It is what it is, and you can indeed measure the Hall effect in > any conductive material connected this way; but the special part, that the > material has low charge carrier density (a semiconductor), is the kicker > that makes it usefully sensitive.The other kicker, is that the output polarity and nominal B field orientation are related; the three-dimensional nature that connects a field with the output means an awkward polarity confusion.
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 10:36:47 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin > ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson > >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > > >[snip] > >>> > >>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. > >> > >>Do I have to give all the money back? > > > >What's that supposed to mean?> It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to > maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and > I got paid. And I don't regret it.But, most of us are upset if we have to walk around with a sausage stuck to our nose. It's not a suitable way to present oneself. Nor is 'source-as-diode' a proper representation; it, too, gets in the way.
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts.I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >symbol:Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. Cheers Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 11:48:22 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:>On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 5:56:04 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >> On Sat, 27 May 2017 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >> wrote: > > >[about symbols] > >> >The one for thermocouple is really a nuisance, it looks too much like >> >just a joint in a wire. Which it IS, but it's a SPECIAL joint, and the wire >> >types matter, and they ARE NOT IDENTIFIED in that silly symbol. So, how >> >can I get the polarity right? >> >> You'd have to use a character-based language. >> >> TYPE K >> >> + >> >> - > >Unhelpful, of course. The actual parts are chromel and constantan, or the pair >markings are yellow and red, not marked with any text symbols. There's not >a K or a + or - anywhere to be seen, until the wire has to get >connected to the plug. > >With spools of wire, and a diagram, I'd like to know what to connect where. >There's too much reliance on conventions and little bits of information not >expressed clearly on the schematic nor in the wire-spool label. Anyone who >needs this info, presumably puts it on a post-it and gets the work done, >but that post-it wouldn't be required if the schematic symbol actually >depicted the reality... somehow. >Add text notes to the schematic if that is helpful. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
