On a sunny day (Mon, 29 May 2017 15:25:53 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <oghei1$ktk$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>Now 3 PICs online !4 make that foor.
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?
Started by ●May 22, 2017
Reply by ●May 29, 20172017-05-29
Reply by ●May 29, 20172017-05-29
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 May 2017 15:25:53 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <oghei1$ktk$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>Now 3 PICs online !4 make that foor. I mean 4, as in 4 .. . .. . .. . beep beep
Reply by ●May 29, 20172017-05-29
On 30/05/17 00:50, John Larkin wrote:> On Mon, 29 May 2017 05:22:44 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: >>> Intel, the CPU we all love to hate! Well, I don't. >>> What's wrong with Intel CPUs? >> I don't care about byte ordering, but I sure do care about the AMT spy subsystem. YCLIU. >> Server-class ARM machines can't get here soon enough for me. >> I use 2011-vintage, 24-core AMD machines that predate AMD's version of AMT. >> Phil Hobbs > > The memory management/protection in x86 is so bad that nobody uses it. > Which is why we have had thousands of buffer-overrun exploits. > > Intel never managed to tell the difference between data and stack and > code.Windows doesn't enable the protection that *is* provided, not because the protection is bad, but because it might force people to rewrite some ancient bits of code whose source is lost in the mist of time.
Reply by ●May 29, 20172017-05-29
On Tue, 30 May 2017 07:44:26 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:>On 30/05/17 00:50, John Larkin wrote: >> On Mon, 29 May 2017 05:22:44 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Intel, the CPU we all love to hate! Well, I don't. >>>> What's wrong with Intel CPUs? >>> I don't care about byte ordering, but I sure do care about the AMT spy subsystem. YCLIU. >>> Server-class ARM machines can't get here soon enough for me. >>> I use 2011-vintage, 24-core AMD machines that predate AMD's version of AMT. >>> Phil Hobbs >> >> The memory management/protection in x86 is so bad that nobody uses it. >> Which is why we have had thousands of buffer-overrun exploits. >> >> Intel never managed to tell the difference between data and stack and >> code. > >Windows doesn't enable the protection that *is* provided, not because >the protection is bad, but because it might force people to rewrite >some ancient bits of code whose source is lost in the mist of time....and is too hard.
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:>>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. > >I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on. > >>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>symbol: > >Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) > >You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. > >Cheers > >Phil HobbsResistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on the schematic symbols. When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar with each part, we pull up the data sheet. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
On Sun, 28 May 2017 08:03:42 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:> ><pcdhobbs@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:f3c21660-1ce9-4c0d-8509-010397e4e5c3@googlegroups.com... >>> I like the insulated-gate-bipolar symbol because it's instantly, >>>intuitively obvious which way the current will flow. I'm not so much >>>interested in the semiconductor physics as feeling how the circuit >>>works. >> >> The current flows as it does because of the device physics and bias >> conditions, not because of a magic symbol. >> > >The confusion is whether the reader will notice that the arrow terminal is >indicating P or N channel.Such people will be equally confused by PNP and NPN transistors, and probably diodes too. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
On Tue, 30 May 2017 15:14:25 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: > >>>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. >> >>I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on. >> >>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>symbol: >> >>Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >> >>You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. >> >>Cheers >> >>Phil Hobbs > >Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >the schematic symbols.But the (properly configured) Spice templates "show" all those parasitics in the netlist. Example shown in my post... Message-ID: <5t2kic9e2dnfpv2v92b0holippp03kuqma@4ax.com>> >When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >with each part, we pull up the data sheet....Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
>>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>symbol: > >>Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >> >>You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. > >>Cheers > >>Phil Hobbs>Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >the schematic symbols.>When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >with each part, we pull up the data sheetCircuit strays and nonlinearity are features of everything at some level. I have no issue with how you folks do things. You make lots of good stuff, and you're happy with your process. I just think that a couple of small strokes of a pencil are a very small price to pay for a vast improvement in the representation of the physics of a fairly complex and very common part like a MOSFET. Cheers Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
On Tue, 30 May 2017 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:>>>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>>symbol: >> >>>Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >>> >>>You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. >> >>>Cheers >> >>>Phil Hobbs > >>Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >>nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >>the schematic symbols. > >>When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >>with each part, we pull up the data sheet > >Circuit strays and nonlinearity are features of everything at some level. > >I have no issue with how you folks do things. You make lots of good stuff, and you're happy with your process. > >I just think that a couple of small strokes of a pencil are a very small price to pay for a vast improvement in the representation of the physics of a fairly complex and very common part like a MOSFET. > >Cheers > >Phil HobbsThe "busy" symbol is either a lot bigger than a bipolar transistor, or illegible. Either way, you have an ugly schematic. Schematics are art. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote on 5/30/2017 8:33 PM:>>>> It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>> symbol: >> >>> Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >>> >>> You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. >> >>> Cheers >> >>> Phil Hobbs > >> Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >> nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >> the schematic symbols. > >> When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >> with each part, we pull up the data sheet > > Circuit strays and nonlinearity are features of everything at some level. > > I have no issue with how you folks do things. You make lots of good stuff, and you're happy with your process. > > I just think that a couple of small strokes of a pencil are a very small price to pay for a vast improvement in the representation of the physics of a fairly complex and very common part like a MOSFET.ONE stroke. The difference is ONE LINE SEGMENT! This entire conversation is about one line segment. -- Rick C
