John Larkin wrote on 5/30/2017 9:53 PM:> On Tue, 30 May 2017 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: > >>>>> It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>>> symbol: >>> >>>> Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >>>> >>>> You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. >>> >>>> Cheers >>> >>>> Phil Hobbs >> >>> Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >>> nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >>> the schematic symbols. >> >>> When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >>> with each part, we pull up the data sheet >> >> Circuit strays and nonlinearity are features of everything at some level. >> >> I have no issue with how you folks do things. You make lots of good stuff, and you're happy with your process. >> >> I just think that a couple of small strokes of a pencil are a very small price to pay for a vast improvement in the representation of the physics of a fairly complex and very common part like a MOSFET. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs > > The "busy" symbol is either a lot bigger than a bipolar transistor, or > illegible. Either way, you have an ugly schematic. > > Schematics are art.Art has no absolutes. One Man's Trash Is Another Man's Art http://mentalfloss.com/article/12668/one-mans-trash-another-mans-art https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/297286/one-mans-trash-is-another-mans-art.html http://www.sidandjim.com/one-man-s-art https://www.facebook.com/usatoday/photos/a.100797840666.101835.13652355666/10152057191590667/?type=3 -- Rick C
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?
Started by ●May 22, 2017
Reply by ●May 30, 20172017-05-30
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message news:fsrric9om7oe97ntjn1dd6ddf6pkm8fm1c@4ax.com...> Such people will be equally confused by PNP and NPN transistors, and > probably diodes too."P --> N". Show me which of these types that violates. Admittedly, the collector is a hack, but it's better than the alternative: a transistor with two emitters. Which would be almost as useless a representation as the textbook "stack of bricks" diagram. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
>The "busy" symbol is either a lot bigger than a bipolar transistor, or >illegible. Either way, you have an ugly schematic.You're really fond of your symbol, and that's okay with me--it's not a moral or theological issue after all. In this instance I disagree aesthetically as well as practically. Cheers Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
On 31/05/17 14:36, pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:>> The "busy" symbol is either a lot bigger than a bipolar transistor, or >> illegible. Either way, you have an ugly schematic. > > You're really fond of your symbol, and that's okay with me-- > it's not a moral or theological issue after all.By which you mean "it's not an issue with any rational ground" and hence admitting some possibility of ending the debate :) The truth is, different designers have different *needs* from their symbols. Phil often cares about and so likes to be reminded of the physics, where Larkin and I like to remember it only when we need to.> In this instance I disagree aesthetically as well as practically.My argument wasn't aesthetic. A simpler symbol is easier to recognise. A parrot is very recognisable, unless it's in a flame tree, when the same parrot becomes almost completely invisible. Why fill your visual field with noise? Whether you need to be reminded of the physics or structure is truly a personal thing. That doesn't make it ungrounded, just contingent on your own needs.> Cheers > Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
rickman wrote...> > ONE stroke. The difference is ONE LINE SEGMENT! > This entire conversation is about one line segment.Actually, two strokes, and worry about adding a dot. That never bothered me, heck, did it for 45 years. To me it's more about the larger, cluttered symbol. I like the simplicity. But I think we got carried away in AoE III; there are places it'd have made more sense. Plus, originally I wanted to make our readers familiar with both styles. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
Winfield Hill wrote on 5/31/2017 8:01 AM:> rickman wrote... >> >> ONE stroke. The difference is ONE LINE SEGMENT! >> This entire conversation is about one line segment. > > Actually, two strokes, and worry about adding a dot.Nope, look again, one stroke. You draw the vertical line and the arrow in either case. For one symbol you add a third line for the source.> That never bothered me, heck, did it for 45 years. > To me it's more about the larger, cluttered symbol. > I like the simplicity. But I think we got carried > away in AoE III; there are places it'd have made > more sense. Plus, originally I wanted to make our > readers familiar with both styles.Why would the size change??? Cluttered??? I think this is a very small mountain being made from a rather large molehill. I don't have my copy of AoE III handy. Do you have a section that shows both symbols and explains why you are using both? If not, all you have done is to confuse the reader. No one expects to see two symbols used for the same thing in a single tome. I really can't believe this conversation is even happening. -- Rick C
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
rickman wrote...> >Winfield Hill wrote on 5/31/2017 8:01 AM: >> rickman wrote... >>> >>> ONE stroke. The difference is ONE LINE SEGMENT! >>> This entire conversation is about one line segment. >> >> Actually, two strokes, and worry about adding a dot. > > Nope, look again, one stroke. You draw the vertical line > and the arrow in either case. For one symbol you add a > third line for the source.Ah, you draw the source wire first, running it halfway up the symbol, that's a shortcut. I usually draw the MOSFET first, then start connecting it to other things. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
On 05/30/2017 10:04 PM, rickman wrote:> John Larkin wrote on 5/30/2017 9:53 PM: >> On Tue, 30 May 2017 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: >> >>>>>> It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>>>>> symbol: >>>> >>>>> Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and >>>>> a small tank of magic smoke. ;) >>>>> >>>>> You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree >>>>> about exactly where. >>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>>> Phil Hobbs >>> >>>> Resistors have capacitances (several), inductance, tempcos, and >>>> nonlinearity. Inductors have parasitics. We don't show any of that on >>>> the schematic symbols. >>> >>>> When we design review a circuit, if we are not intimately familiar >>>> with each part, we pull up the data sheet >>> >>> Circuit strays and nonlinearity are features of everything at some >>> level. >>> >>> I have no issue with how you folks do things. You make lots of good >>> stuff, and you're happy with your process. >>> >>> I just think that a couple of small strokes of a pencil are a very >>> small price to pay for a vast improvement in the representation of >>> the physics of a fairly complex and very common part like a MOSFET. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Phil Hobbs >> >> The "busy" symbol is either a lot bigger than a bipolar transistor, or >> illegible. Either way, you have an ugly schematic. >> >> Schematics are art. > > Art has no absolutes. One Man's Trash Is Another Man's Art > > http://mentalfloss.com/article/12668/one-mans-trash-another-mans-art > > https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/297286/one-mans-trash-is-another-mans-art.html > > > http://www.sidandjim.com/one-man-s-art > > https://www.facebook.com/usatoday/photos/a.100797840666.101835.13652355666/10152057191590667/?type=3 > >The idea that there is no such thing as beauty--i.e. the Good as an object of desire--is one of the philosophical errors that got us where we are today. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
On a sunny day (Wed, 31 May 2017 09:03:51 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogmepa$t9c$1@dont-email.me>:>I really can't believe this conversation is even happening.Indeed, I remember a movie, long ago, where Popes men came and almost got into a fistfight about: 'If Jesus had a purse or not'. Don't remember the name of the movie...
Reply by ●May 31, 20172017-05-31
