> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to >actually show the diode as part of the symbol. I've seen many >cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been > supplemented with the diode. This may be redundant,* but it > comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always > aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, > and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. Ahem, >would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode? >* One other aspect, this diode is drawn in place even though >there's a chance of confusion, is this another required part? The symbol with the
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?
Started by ●May 22, 2017
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to > actually show the diode as part of the symbol. I've seen many > cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been > supplemented with the diode. This may be redundant,* but it > comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always > aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, > and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. Ahem, > would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;) The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. Cheers Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...> > The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to > +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol > but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.Yes, that's a good example. But even here, it cries out to have the redundant diode explicitly shown. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 07:53:31 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message >news:3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com... >> You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons >> don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to >> describe anything. > >So the electrons magically know which way 'round the source and drain are? > >Shall I build your circuit and the OP circuit and connect both to an >unlimited current supply? > >Which one is right, John? :-) > >TimMy circuits and PCBs are right, the first time around, because I spend my time checking and being careful, not twisting my undies over things that don't matter. Lots of my designs do have more than 7 transistors. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Amps/Amp.jpg -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
John Larkin wrote on 5/28/2017 11:06 AM:> On Sun, 28 May 2017 07:53:31 -0500, "Tim Williams" > <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: > >> "John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message >> news:3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com... >>> You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons >>> don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to >>> describe anything. >> >> So the electrons magically know which way 'round the source and drain are? >> >> Shall I build your circuit and the OP circuit and connect both to an >> unlimited current supply? >> >> Which one is right, John? :-) >> >> Tim > > My circuits and PCBs are right, the first time around, because I spend > my time checking and being careful, not twisting my undies over things > that don't matter.Funny, I thought that was exactly what this thread was all about, twisting your undies over things that don't matter... one line segment in a schematic symbol. -- Rick C
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On 28 May 2017 07:19:25 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:>pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote... >> >> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to >> +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol >> but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. > > Yes, that's a good example. But even here, it cries > out to have the redundant diode explicitly shown.Required only for the cut and paste style of designer, who has no clue how the devices actually work. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:>>�If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to >>�actually show the diode as part of the symbol. �I've seen many >>�cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been >>�supplemented with the diode. �This may be redundant,* but it >>�comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always >>�aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, >>�and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. �Ahem, >>�would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode? > >As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;) > >The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting any of those things. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: > >>>�If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to >>>�actually show the diode as part of the symbol. �I've seen many >>>�cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been >>>�supplemented with the diode. �This may be redundant,* but it >>>�comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always >>>�aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, >>>�and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. �Ahem, >>>�would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode? >> >>As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;) >> >>The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. > >It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. > >It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or >avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement >or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting >any of those things.You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented? That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote: >> >>>>�If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to >>>>�actually show the diode as part of the symbol. �I've seen many >>>>�cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been >>>>�supplemented with the diode. �This may be redundant,* but it >>>>�comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always >>>>�aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, >>>>�and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked. �Ahem, >>>>�would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode? >>> >>>As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;) >>> >>>The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. >> >>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. >> >>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic >>symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or >>avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement >>or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting >>any of those things. > >You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented?Sure, give each mosfet its own schematic sheet.> >That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.Do I have to give all the money back? -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●May 28, 20172017-05-28
On 26 May 2017 19:05:09 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote... >> Winfield Hill wrote: >>> Jim Thompson wrote... >>>> >>>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >>>> Examples? >>> >>> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 >>> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 >>> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. >>> OPA197, Figure 50. >>> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. >>> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MOSFETs) >>> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 >>> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle >>> >>> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a >>> comparator. Just skinning the surface. >> >> OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard >> for the hackers >:-} > > Yep, TI is one massive 80-billion-dollar hacker.TI's TINA doesn't use that symbol. That symbol likely got into a datasheet because datasheets are typically NOT created by the designer. I had all kinds of issues with Motorola's datasheet department @#$%-ing up the proper representation of my designs.> I figured you'd blame Massachusetts liberals.Cut the crap Win, I thought you more intelligent than spewing that kind of remark.> Standards evolve, Jim. Although I found a 2001 > example (earlier ones no doubt exist), most were > within the last five years. Picking up steam > now, maybe our book will push it a bit. Also, no > more p-channel gate circles were seen after 2001.Why don't you use the IEEE STANDARD symbol... that's so easily understandable ?>:-} "Push it" all you want... the more clueless engineers out there, the better my business. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
