On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A. > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. > > > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient. > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing.
Circuit Breaker 22AIC
Started by ●September 24, 2023
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > > > > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > > > > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A. > > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. > > > > > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient. > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. > I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing.What is your 'near'?
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:02:33 PM UTC-4, John Smiht wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > > > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > > > > > > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > > > > > > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A. > > > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. > > > > > > > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient. > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. > > I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing. > What is your 'near'?Hand- wire nutting live wires to a ceiling light fixture with all the bulbs removed. AFCI tripped when I just touched a single wire, by the insulation of course.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On 9/25/2023 9:04 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 6:32:24 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: >>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >>>> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: >>>>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem. >>>> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment >>>> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's >>>> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm >>>> or loss as a result of your actions). >>>> >>>> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed* >>>> (what ampacity circuit). >>>> >>>> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works". >>>> >>>> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there" >>>> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it >>>> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old >>>> wire on hand that predates your occupancy). >>>> >>>> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns. >>> >>> I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave. >> The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances >> precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more >> of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by >> nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices >> (that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort >> of behavior and tries to anticipate it). >> >> [Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit? >> Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners >> into ALL of them??] >> >> Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge >> (which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a >> dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small >> appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone >> who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a >> 15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application >> could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge). >> >> Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever >> he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge >> on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the >> nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with >> the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter >> circuit. >> >> "Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit >> installed -- like every NEW home!" >> >> [I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that >> my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the >> same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen >> aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come >> out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that >> shiny new fridge!)] >> >> Ditto for a freezer, etc. >> >> But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to >> anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on >> the counter circuit!") > > None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.What does that have to do with my above comments? The issues are orthogonal. Can you put a dishwasher and refrigerator on the same branch circuit, in california, EVEN IF AFCI PROTECTED? An AFCI does nothing for the AMPACITY of a branch circuit which is why the requirement for dedicated branch circuits exists. AFCI's protect against a different type of fault in the same way as GFCIs.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit with some other appliance... You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart controls will inhibit the compressor for its required dead time on initial application of power for exactly this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor always "waiting" even without cause) [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged each time you throw something in the microwave for 15 seconds?] And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:> On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit > with some other appliance... > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required > dead time on initial application of power for exactly > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor > always "waiting" even without cause) > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged > each time you throw something in the microwave > for 15 seconds?] > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) Microwave: 1500W Laptops: 60W to 90W. No dishwasher or coffee pot.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On 9/25/2023 11:44 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: >>> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. >> What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say >> it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than >> half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) >> >> The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large >> loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, >> toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster >> ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), >> stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. >> >> Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to >> think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, >> microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly >> turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and >> tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit >> with some other appliance... >> >> You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator >> (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse >> the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) >> lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) >> load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart >> controls will inhibit the compressor for its required >> dead time on initial application of power for exactly >> this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor >> always "waiting" even without cause) >> >> [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. >> Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged >> each time you throw something in the microwave >> for 15 seconds?] >> >> And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) >> risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the >> refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* >> breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit >> thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the >> breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to >> discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher >> or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered >> off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty >> but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor)Branch circuits care very little about the AVERAGE power. I suspect the power cord is a fair bit larger than 22AWG? You need to find the nameplate declaration of maximum power required. Refrigerator power requirements are all over the map. Note that startup power requirements can be 2-3X running power (you can look at the compressor's locked rotor current for a worst case value; of course, with all the electronics now migrating into appliances, the compressor isn't just the sole/primary load!)> Microwave: 1500W > Laptops: 60W to 90W.And you have *10* of those on that same branch circuit? That's 600-900W *there*.> No dishwasher or coffee pot.Dishwasher would be on its own circuit -- though it can be ("just") a 15A circuit -- as can the refrigerator. (and, unless hardwired -- which is highly unlikely -- would need a *single* outlet... NOT a duplex receptacle) It's important in that, while running, it consumes some of the available power *into* your residence. [Anyone who has lived in a dorm room can appreciate "active power management"! :-( ] Note that home energy usage has evolved, considerably. When I was a kid, a single 15A "outlet circuit" could easily power ALL of the bedrooms in a home. Now, everyone has a personal TV, personal computer, etc. Bedrooms are used for more than just the bedside radio and lamp.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit > > with some other appliance... > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor > > always "waiting" even without cause) > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged > > each time you throw something in the microwave > > for 15 seconds?] > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) > Microwave: 1500W > Laptops: 60W to 90W. > > No dishwasher or coffee pot.I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? It just occurred to me. You have the fridge to chill all the laptops so you can overclock them!!! Here's the most direct route to solving your problem. Get a microwave that is 600 watts, rather than the behemoth 1500 watt monster. Do you actual defrost turkeys in it? -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
In article <uesltr$22gfl$2@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid says...> > [Anyone who has lived in a dorm room can appreciate "active > power management"! :-( ] > > >When my son was in a dorm room he could rent what they called a 'microfrige'. It was a microwave on top of a small refrigerator. I would assume it was set up so both of them were not drawing power at the same time. Due to the cost of the rent we decided just to buy a microwave an small refrigerator.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 3:34:16 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:> In article <uesltr$22gfl$2...@dont-email.me>, blocked...@foo.invalid > says... > > > > [Anyone who has lived in a dorm room can appreciate "active > > power management"! :-( ] > > > > > > > When my son was in a dorm room he could rent what they called a > 'microfrige'. It was a microwave on top of a small refrigerator. I > would assume it was set up so both of them were not drawing power at the > same time. Due to the cost of the rent we decided just to buy a > microwave an small refrigerator.I think that's an overly large assumption. That tiny refrigerator probably draws 100W when running. It has no defrost. The microwave is likely 600W and just barely makes popcorn. No need at all to worry with the two running at the same time. -- Rick C. +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
