Circuit Breaker 22AIC

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:58:29 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:50:45 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:25:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:31:34 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. 
> > > > > > > > > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say 
> > > > > > > > > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than 
> > > > > > > > > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large 
> > > > > > > > > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, 
> > > > > > > > > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster 
> > > > > > > > > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), 
> > > > > > > > > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to 
> > > > > > > > > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, 
> > > > > > > > > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly 
> > > > > > > > > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and 
> > > > > > > > > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit 
> > > > > > > > > > with some other appliance... 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator 
> > > > > > > > > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse 
> > > > > > > > > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) 
> > > > > > > > > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) 
> > > > > > > > > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart 
> > > > > > > > > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required 
> > > > > > > > > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly 
> > > > > > > > > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor 
> > > > > > > > > > always "waiting" even without cause) 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. 
> > > > > > > > > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged 
> > > > > > > > > > each time you throw something in the microwave 
> > > > > > > > > > for 15 seconds?] 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) 
> > > > > > > > > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the 
> > > > > > > > > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* 
> > > > > > > > > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit 
> > > > > > > > > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the 
> > > > > > > > > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to 
> > > > > > > > > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher 
> > > > > > > > > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered 
> > > > > > > > > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty 
> > > > > > > > > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) 
> > > > > > > > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) 
> > > > > > > > > Microwave: 1500W 
> > > > > > > > > Laptops: 60W to 90W. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > No dishwasher or coffee pot. 
> > > > > > > > I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? 
> > > > > > > You answered your question in another post: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "Typically a refrigerator runs on 35% duty cycle, (65% for a freezer). This means that if you take the running watts and multiply it by 35%, you can get an idea as to how much power the average running amps will be." 
> > > > > > I'm pretty sure I didn't post that. Regardless, that would be a combination of an average with a rule of thumb, so not of much value. The point is, your appliance has a plate with the actual power rating while running. Why don't you look at that? Not the motor, the appliance. You've also said nothing about the size of this appliance. Is it a dorm room size fridge? A massive double door kitchen behemoth? Something in between? As is usual with you, only the barest minimum of information is provided and then the guessing begins. 
> > > > > There is an energy guide tag saying 310 KWhr/year. Nothing else. Detail info might be at the back of the fridge. Too heavy to pull the fridge out when loaded. 
> > > > Ok, but that's not the same as "nothing else". It just means you don't know the wattage and you won't do what it takes to find it. Can you read a model number somewhere? Did you look inside the fridge? 
> > > OK, GE GPE12FGKDWW 
> > > 1.2A 115VAC 
> > > Ice maker power:145W 
> > > Defrost power:180W 
> > Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee.
> Is 0.4A out of 20A such an important factor? Or you are missing the point.

As usual, your math is not up to par.  Where do you get 0.4A???

The fridge is 1.2A. 
The ice maker is 1.2A. 
The defroster is 1.5A. 

I'm sure I am missing the point.  But that's because, like all of your projects, you can't provide the information in a clear manner.  You have to scatter it over many posts, in many forms such that the only real project is trying to understand what you are asking about. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:58:29 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:50:45 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:25:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:31:34 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. 
> > > > > > > > > > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say 
> > > > > > > > > > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than 
> > > > > > > > > > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large 
> > > > > > > > > > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, 
> > > > > > > > > > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster 
> > > > > > > > > > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), 
> > > > > > > > > > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to 
> > > > > > > > > > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, 
> > > > > > > > > > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly 
> > > > > > > > > > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and 
> > > > > > > > > > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit 
> > > > > > > > > > > with some other appliance... 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator 
> > > > > > > > > > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse 
> > > > > > > > > > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) 
> > > > > > > > > > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) 
> > > > > > > > > > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart 
> > > > > > > > > > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required 
> > > > > > > > > > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly 
> > > > > > > > > > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor 
> > > > > > > > > > > always "waiting" even without cause) 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. 
> > > > > > > > > > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged 
> > > > > > > > > > > each time you throw something in the microwave 
> > > > > > > > > > > for 15 seconds?] 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) 
> > > > > > > > > > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the 
> > > > > > > > > > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* 
> > > > > > > > > > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit 
> > > > > > > > > > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the 
> > > > > > > > > > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to 
> > > > > > > > > > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher 
> > > > > > > > > > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered 
> > > > > > > > > > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty 
> > > > > > > > > > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) 
> > > > > > > > > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) 
> > > > > > > > > > Microwave: 1500W 
> > > > > > > > > > Laptops: 60W to 90W. 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > No dishwasher or coffee pot. 
> > > > > > > > > I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? 
> > > > > > > > You answered your question in another post: 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > "Typically a refrigerator runs on 35% duty cycle, (65% for a freezer). This means that if you take the running watts and multiply it by 35%, you can get an idea as to how much power the average running amps will be." 
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure I didn't post that. Regardless, that would be a combination of an average with a rule of thumb, so not of much value. The point is, your appliance has a plate with the actual power rating while running. Why don't you look at that? Not the motor, the appliance. You've also said nothing about the size of this appliance. Is it a dorm room size fridge? A massive double door kitchen behemoth? Something in between? As is usual with you, only the barest minimum of information is provided and then the guessing begins. 
> > > > > > There is an energy guide tag saying 310 KWhr/year. Nothing else. Detail info might be at the back of the fridge. Too heavy to pull the fridge out when loaded. 
> > > > > Ok, but that's not the same as "nothing else". It just means you don't know the wattage and you won't do what it takes to find it. Can you read a model number somewhere? Did you look inside the fridge? 
> > > > OK, GE GPE12FGKDWW 
> > > > 1.2A 115VAC 
> > > > Ice maker power:145W 
> > > > Defrost power:180W 
> > > Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee. 
> > Is 0.4A out of 20A such an important factor? Or you are missing the point.
> As usual, your math is not up to par. Where do you get 0.4A??? 

OK, 1.5A - 1.2A, or 0.3A.  So, I am off by 0.1A out of 20A.

> The fridge is 1.2A. 
> The ice maker is 1.2A. 
> The defroster is 1.5A. 
> 
> I'm sure I am missing the point. But that's because, like all of your projects, you can't provide the information in a clear manner. You have to scatter it over many posts, in many forms such that the only real project is trying to understand what you are asking about. 

You point out that the defroster is unusually high, which is 0.3A more than typical running power.  My point is that 0.3A is not an important factor.  Unless you are missing the point, the decimal point.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:58:29 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:50:45 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:25:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:31:34 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say 
> > > > > > > > > > > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than 
> > > > > > > > > > > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large 
> > > > > > > > > > > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), 
> > > > > > > > > > > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > with some other appliance... 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator 
> > > > > > > > > > > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse 
> > > > > > > > > > > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart 
> > > > > > > > > > > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required 
> > > > > > > > > > > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor 
> > > > > > > > > > > > always "waiting" even without cause) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged 
> > > > > > > > > > > > each time you throw something in the microwave 
> > > > > > > > > > > > for 15 seconds?] 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* 
> > > > > > > > > > > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher 
> > > > > > > > > > > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered 
> > > > > > > > > > > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty 
> > > > > > > > > > > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) 
> > > > > > > > > > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) 
> > > > > > > > > > > Microwave: 1500W 
> > > > > > > > > > > Laptops: 60W to 90W. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > No dishwasher or coffee pot. 
> > > > > > > > > > I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? 
> > > > > > > > > You answered your question in another post: 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > "Typically a refrigerator runs on 35% duty cycle, (65% for a freezer). This means that if you take the running watts and multiply it by 35%, you can get an idea as to how much power the average running amps will be." 
> > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure I didn't post that. Regardless, that would be a combination of an average with a rule of thumb, so not of much value. The point is, your appliance has a plate with the actual power rating while running. Why don't you look at that? Not the motor, the appliance. You've also said nothing about the size of this appliance. Is it a dorm room size fridge? A massive double door kitchen behemoth? Something in between? As is usual with you, only the barest minimum of information is provided and then the guessing begins. 
> > > > > > > There is an energy guide tag saying 310 KWhr/year. Nothing else. Detail info might be at the back of the fridge. Too heavy to pull the fridge out when loaded. 
> > > > > > Ok, but that's not the same as "nothing else". It just means you don't know the wattage and you won't do what it takes to find it. Can you read a model number somewhere? Did you look inside the fridge? 
> > > > > OK, GE GPE12FGKDWW 
> > > > > 1.2A 115VAC 
> > > > > Ice maker power:145W 
> > > > > Defrost power:180W 
> > > > Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee. 
> > > Is 0.4A out of 20A such an important factor? Or you are missing the point. 
> > As usual, your math is not up to par. Where do you get 0.4A???
> OK, 1.5A - 1.2A, or 0.3A. So, I am off by 0.1A out of 20A.
> > The fridge is 1.2A. 
> > The ice maker is 1.2A. 
> > The defroster is 1.5A. 
> > 
> > I'm sure I am missing the point. But that's because, like all of your projects, you can't provide the information in a clear manner. You have to scatter it over many posts, in many forms such that the only real project is trying to understand what you are asking about.
> You point out that the defroster is unusually high, which is 0.3A more than typical running power. My point is that 0.3A is not an important factor. Unless you are missing the point, the decimal point.

Why do you read things that I don't write???  This is why it is so difficult to help you.  My point is that you are difficult to get accurate info from.  This makes it difficult to know what you are talking about.  It's not just this one number.  I have said several times that you have failed repeatedly to provide clear information about the overall project. 

Good luck on your project. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:45:32 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:58:29 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:50:45 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:25:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:31:34 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with some other appliance... 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > always "waiting" even without cause) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > each time you throw something in the microwave 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for 15 seconds?] 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Microwave: 1500W 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Laptops: 60W to 90W. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > No dishwasher or coffee pot. 
> > > > > > > > > > > I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? 
> > > > > > > > > > You answered your question in another post: 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > "Typically a refrigerator runs on 35% duty cycle, (65% for a freezer). This means that if you take the running watts and multiply it by 35%, you can get an idea as to how much power the average running amps will be." 
> > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure I didn't post that. Regardless, that would be a combination of an average with a rule of thumb, so not of much value. The point is, your appliance has a plate with the actual power rating while running. Why don't you look at that? Not the motor, the appliance. You've also said nothing about the size of this appliance. Is it a dorm room size fridge? A massive double door kitchen behemoth? Something in between? As is usual with you, only the barest minimum of information is provided and then the guessing begins. 
> > > > > > > > There is an energy guide tag saying 310 KWhr/year. Nothing else. Detail info might be at the back of the fridge. Too heavy to pull the fridge out when loaded. 
> > > > > > > Ok, but that's not the same as "nothing else". It just means you don't know the wattage and you won't do what it takes to find it. Can you read a model number somewhere? Did you look inside the fridge? 
> > > > > > OK, GE GPE12FGKDWW 
> > > > > > 1.2A 115VAC 
> > > > > > Ice maker power:145W 
> > > > > > Defrost power:180W 
> > > > > Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee. 
> > > > Is 0.4A out of 20A such an important factor? Or you are missing the point. 
> > > As usual, your math is not up to par. Where do you get 0.4A??? 
> > OK, 1.5A - 1.2A, or 0.3A. So, I am off by 0.1A out of 20A. 
> > > The fridge is 1.2A. 
> > > The ice maker is 1.2A. 
> > > The defroster is 1.5A. 
> > > 
> > > I'm sure I am missing the point. But that's because, like all of your projects, you can't provide the information in a clear manner. You have to scatter it over many posts, in many forms such that the only real project is trying to understand what you are asking about. 
> > You point out that the defroster is unusually high, which is 0.3A more than typical running power. My point is that 0.3A is not an important factor. Unless you are missing the point, the decimal point.
> Why do you read things that I don't write??? This is why it is so difficult to help you. My point is that you are difficult to get accurate info from. This makes it difficult to know what you are talking about. It's not just this one number. I have said several times that you have failed repeatedly to provide clear information about the overall project. 
> 
> Good luck on your project. 

You said:
"Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee."

Is 0.3A more that important?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:45:32 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:58:29 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 12:50:45 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 4:25:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:31:34 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV), 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with some other appliance... 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dead time on initial application of power for exactly 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > always "waiting" even without cause) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > each time you throw something in the microwave 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for 15 seconds?] 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its* 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor) 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Microwave: 1500W 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Laptops: 60W to 90W. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > No dishwasher or coffee pot. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem? 
> > > > > > > > > > > You answered your question in another post: 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > "Typically a refrigerator runs on 35% duty cycle, (65% for a freezer). This means that if you take the running watts and multiply it by 35%, you can get an idea as to how much power the average running amps will be." 
> > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure I didn't post that. Regardless, that would be a combination of an average with a rule of thumb, so not of much value. The point is, your appliance has a plate with the actual power rating while running. Why don't you look at that? Not the motor, the appliance. You've also said nothing about the size of this appliance. Is it a dorm room size fridge? A massive double door kitchen behemoth? Something in between? As is usual with you, only the barest minimum of information is provided and then the guessing begins. 
> > > > > > > > > There is an energy guide tag saying 310 KWhr/year. Nothing else. Detail info might be at the back of the fridge. Too heavy to pull the fridge out when loaded. 
> > > > > > > > Ok, but that's not the same as "nothing else". It just means you don't know the wattage and you won't do what it takes to find it. Can you read a model number somewhere? Did you look inside the fridge? 
> > > > > > > OK, GE GPE12FGKDWW 
> > > > > > > 1.2A 115VAC 
> > > > > > > Ice maker power:145W 
> > > > > > > Defrost power:180W 
> > > > > > Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee. 
> > > > > Is 0.4A out of 20A such an important factor? Or you are missing the point. 
> > > > As usual, your math is not up to par. Where do you get 0.4A??? 
> > > OK, 1.5A - 1.2A, or 0.3A. So, I am off by 0.1A out of 20A. 
> > > > The fridge is 1.2A. 
> > > > The ice maker is 1.2A. 
> > > > The defroster is 1.5A. 
> > > > 
> > > > I'm sure I am missing the point. But that's because, like all of your projects, you can't provide the information in a clear manner. You have to scatter it over many posts, in many forms such that the only real project is trying to understand what you are asking about. 
> > > You point out that the defroster is unusually high, which is 0.3A more than typical running power. My point is that 0.3A is not an important factor. Unless you are missing the point, the decimal point. 
> > Why do you read things that I don't write??? This is why it is so difficult to help you. My point is that you are difficult to get accurate info from. This makes it difficult to know what you are talking about. It's not just this one number. I have said several times that you have failed repeatedly to provide clear information about the overall project. 
> > 
> > Good luck on your project.
> You said: 
> "Your defroster uses more power than the fridge. I don't know why you didn't include this info in your first post. You should have included the power of all the devices. Then you wouldn't have needed to make the post at all. But then, that wouldn't be Eddie Lee."
> Is 0.3A more that important?

Again, you have no idea what I was saying.  That's ok.  None of this is important.  

Enjoy your project. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave.

OK, I figure out that the hood fan and waste disposal are on dedicated circuit, and the microwave should tap into this circuit.  So, i need to do a few things:

1. Both outlets under the sink are switched.  That's wrong.  Only the top should be switched.  The bottom outlet should be always on.  Have to fix the wiring.

2.  Drill a hole on the side of the sink cabinet and run a wire to the microwave.

3. Never turn on hood fan, waste disposal and microwave at the same time.

On 10/5/2023 6:50 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave.
> 
> OK, I figure out that the hood fan and waste disposal are on dedicated circuit, and the microwave should tap into this circuit.  So, i need to do a few things:
> 
> 1. Both outlets under the sink are switched.  That's wrong. 

Does the disposal plug into a receptacle? If not it needs a disconnect 
(the switch) if wired under the NEC.

Fan plugs into a receptacle under the sink? Switch for a hood fan that 
is plugged in under a sink?  Does the line cord for hood fan run through 
cabinet wall? Sounds more like it was for a dishwasher. Disconnect 
applies here too.

> Only the top should be switched.  The bottom outlet should be always on. 

"Top"? Top half of a duplex receptacle? If that is what it is, a single 
duplex receptacle should have been split-wired to the 2 switches.  Or 
two single receptacles should have been used.

> Have to fix the wiring.
> 
> 2.  Drill a hole on the side of the sink cabinet and run a wire to the microwave.

Your electrical inspector would not be pleased.

> 
> 3. Never turn on hood fan, waste disposal and microwave at the same time.
> 

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 8:21:41 PM UTC-7, bud-- wrote:
> On 10/5/2023 6:50 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> >> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. 
> > 
> > OK, I figure out that the hood fan and waste disposal are on dedicated circuit, and the microwave should tap into this circuit. So, i need to do a few things: 
> > 
> > 1. Both outlets under the sink are switched. That's wrong.
> Does the disposal plug into a receptacle? If not it needs a disconnect 
> (the switch) if wired under the NEC. 
> 
> Fan plugs into a receptacle under the sink? Switch for a hood fan that 
> is plugged in under a sink? Does the line cord for hood fan run through 
> cabinet wall? Sounds more like it was for a dishwasher. Disconnect 
> applies here too.

No, the hood fan is wired separately from the same circuit breaker.

> > Only the top should be switched. The bottom outlet should be always on.
> "Top"? Top half of a duplex receptacle? If that is what it is, a single 
> duplex receptacle should have been split-wired to the 2 switches. 

Yes, that's what I am planning to fix.  The top receptacle connect via the switch, but the bottom one should wire directly without the switch.  That's how it is wired for some other light receptacles.  I think it's just an oversight that they didn't do it under the sink.

> Or two single receptacles should have been used.
> > Have to fix the wiring. 
> > 
> > 2. Drill a hole on the side of the sink cabinet and run a wire to the microwave.
> Your electrical inspector would not be pleased.

I would remove it before vacating the apartment.
 
> > 3. Never turn on hood fan, waste disposal and microwave at the same time. 
> >

On 10/6/2023 9:36 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 8:21:41 PM UTC-7, bud-- wrote:
>> On 10/5/2023 6:50 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave.
>>>
>>> OK, I figure out that the hood fan and waste disposal are on dedicated circuit, and the microwave should tap into this circuit. So, i need to do a few things:
>>>
>>> 1. Both outlets under the sink are switched. That's wrong.
>> Does the disposal plug into a receptacle? If not it needs a disconnect
>> (the switch) if wired under the NEC.
>>
>> Fan plugs into a receptacle under the sink? Switch for a hood fan that
>> is plugged in under a sink? Does the line cord for hood fan run through
>> cabinet wall? Sounds more like it was for a dishwasher. Disconnect
>> applies here too.
> 
> No, the hood fan is wired separately from the same circuit breaker.

So "both outlets under the sink" is a duplex receptacle.

> 
>>> Only the top should be switched. The bottom outlet should be always on.
>> "Top"? Top half of a duplex receptacle? If that is what it is, a single
>> duplex receptacle should have been split-wired to the 2 switches.
> 
> Yes, that's what I am planning to fix.  The top receptacle connect via the switch, but the bottom one should wire directly without the switch.  That's how it is wired for some other light receptacles.  I think it's just an oversight that they didn't do it under the sink.

The oversight is that it should have been a single receptacle. A 
receptacle under the sink is only for the disposal. It certainly is not 
for a microwave that is to be on one of the "small appliance branch 
circuits".

> 
>> Or two single receptacles should have been used.
>>> Have to fix the wiring.
>>>
>>> 2. Drill a hole on the side of the sink cabinet and run a wire to the microwave.
>> Your electrical inspector would not be pleased.
> 
> I would remove it before vacating the apartment.
>   
>>> 3. Never turn on hood fan, waste disposal and microwave at the same time.
>>>

On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 8:30:52 PM UTC-7, bud-- wrote:
> On 10/6/2023 9:36 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> > On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 8:21:41 PM UTC-7, bud-- wrote: 
> >> On 10/5/2023 6:50 AM, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> >>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:28:37 PM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote: 
> >>>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. 
> >>> 
> >>> OK, I figure out that the hood fan and waste disposal are on dedicated circuit, and the microwave should tap into this circuit. So, i need to do a few things: 
> >>> 
> >>> 1. Both outlets under the sink are switched. That's wrong. 
> >> Does the disposal plug into a receptacle? If not it needs a disconnect 
> >> (the switch) if wired under the NEC. 
> >> 
> >> Fan plugs into a receptacle under the sink? Switch for a hood fan that 
> >> is plugged in under a sink? Does the line cord for hood fan run through 
> >> cabinet wall? Sounds more like it was for a dishwasher. Disconnect 
> >> applies here too. 
> > 
> > No, the hood fan is wired separately from the same circuit breaker.
> So "both outlets under the sink" is a duplex receptacle.

Yes.

> > 
> >>> Only the top should be switched. The bottom outlet should be always on. 
> >> "Top"? Top half of a duplex receptacle? If that is what it is, a single 
> >> duplex receptacle should have been split-wired to the 2 switches. 
> > 
> > Yes, that's what I am planning to fix. The top receptacle connect via the switch, but the bottom one should wire directly without the switch. That's how it is wired for some other light receptacles. I think it's just an oversight that they didn't do it under the sink.
> The oversight is that it should have been a single receptacle. A 
> receptacle under the sink is only for the disposal. It certainly is not 
> for a microwave that is to be on one of the "small appliance branch 
> circuits". 

Single receptacle is not common here.  I guess economy of scale is for double.

It's not difficult to avoid using disposal and microwave at the same time, perhaps with a 3 way switch.

> 
> >
> >> Or two single receptacles should have been used. 
> >>> Have to fix the wiring. 
> >>> 
> >>> 2. Drill a hole on the side of the sink cabinet and run a wire to the microwave. 
> >> Your electrical inspector would not be pleased. 
> > 
> > I would remove it before vacating the apartment. 
> > 
> >>> 3. Never turn on hood fan, waste disposal and microwave at the same time. 
> >>>